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The Whole Scientific Truth about TriETHANOLamine

 
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pinkecube View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinkecube Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2014 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by AmberColour AmberColour wrote:

@pinkecube

Glad you found something that worked for you!
And you are around commonfolk here.Smile
I really do want to try the MHM hopefully soon.
I'll post my results in your thread when that happens.



Thanks Ambercolor Smile. It will be great if you can try the regimen and post your results and experience when that time comes, that would be great! btw the revised regimen is on this page some mixtures have been altered and also it has more links.

http://forum.blackhairmedia.com/the-max-hydration-methodfrom-my-other-post_topic368937_page72.html
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afro-latina thespian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote afro-latina thespian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2014 at 7:50pm
I'm new to BHM - I mostly just creep, so this is my first post. I'm thankful for coming across this topic because I use eco styler gel often and wonder why my hair breaks so much or why it's so dry. You did a great job of backing up your facts with sources and literal information - not just what you "think." I can tell you did thorough research on this topic. I'll definitely check out your max hydration method... I scanned the topic about ten minutes ago to see what it was about, but I'll definitely be looking into it now. Again, thank you for this post and good work!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinkecube Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 20 2014 at 1:17am
Originally posted by afro-latina thespian afro-latina thespian wrote:

I'm new to BHM - I mostly just creep, so this is my first post. I'm thankful for coming across this topic because I use eco styler gel often and wonder why my hair breaks so much or why it's so dry. You did a great job of backing up your facts with sources and literal information - not just what you "think." I can tell you did thorough research on this topic. I'll definitely check out your max hydration method... I scanned the topic about ten minutes ago to see what it was about, but I'll definitely be looking into it now. Again, thank you for this post and good work!

hi afro-latina thespian, thank you. Im glad i could help you figure out why that terrible gel was breaking your hair. Yes read into the other post, its a great regimen. Page 72 has the full revised regimen. Msdeekay2012 on youtube also recently made a video of her before and after 2 month results on her 4c hair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ichoose2believe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 20 2014 at 9:10am
Thumbs Up Thanks Pinkecube for all the good information. I am so glad that I decided to just buy the KCCC to use since the big chop (and going natural). 

I loved the link to more info about relaxers. My mom is a "leave it in until bone straight" type and now her hair won't grow past her ears and since she has gotten older its getting thinner. 

Thank you for doing all that research. Information is Power :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinkecube Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 20 2014 at 11:02am
Originally posted by ichoose2believe ichoose2believe wrote:

Thumbs Up Thanks Pinkecube for all the good information. I am so glad that I decided to just buy the KCCC to use since the big chop (and going natural). 

I loved the link to more info about relaxers. My mom is a "leave it in until bone straight" type and now her hair won't grow past her ears and since she has gotten older its getting thinner. 

Thank you for doing all that research. Information is Power :) 


Your welcome I'm glad to see this info is being appreciated, thank youSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeautyful Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2014 at 2:41pm
I haven't been on the forum in a while, however, I logged on when my intern mentioned the site today. This post caught my eye. I am a cosmetic chemist and started my career formulating for hair care products targeted for ethnic hair.

I agree that the OP took her time to do extensive research on the topic! Some of the things said is far fetched, IMO. Now this isn't to discredit anyone, however, out of respect for other formulators and brands I felt the need to state my professional experience.

One of my first projects was a hair gel similar to KCC, therefore, I have quite some knowledge on hair gels. Yes, there has been some negative connotations associated with TEA.

In the purpose of hair gels, TEA's function is as a neutralizer! Triethanolamine is used primarily to neutralize polymers who have lower pH levels (below 5). Depending on the amount of polymer, I've used TEA at no more than 0.3% of the total formula. Associating TEA to ethanol is on the extreme. Just because ethanol is in the technical name, doesn't mean it is the same as ethanol.

As the OP stated, TEA is formed from ethylene oxide and ammonia. Ethanol is ethyl alcohol (or grain alcohol such as Everclear). Denatured alcohols are those like SDA 40B, SDA 38B-17, etc. Denatured means different materials were added to the ethanol to make them unsuitable for human consumption. The denaturation (dealing with proteins) that is being discussed in the post should NOT be confused with denatured alcohol. It is not the same.

The statement that a clear gel can only be formed when heat is introduced is absolutely false. In actuality, I've never used heat when making crystal clear hair gels. It isn't necessary. A clear gel means that the polymer used was properly neutralized. In this case with Wetline, the polymer is polyacrylic acid which is a component of carbomer. Holding power comes from the actual polymer.

With TEA being the 3rd ingredient, that means that there isn't anything substantial in the formula. It is most likely 85-90% water. The polyacrylic acid is not used to balance pH and neutralize TEA, it's the reverse.

I'm all for self educating yourself, however, we can all be guilty of digging too deep. I'm not at all saying this product isn't causing the problems mentioned. Just be careful when presenting information to the public.

Edited by bbeautyful - Sep 03 2014 at 2:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinkecube Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 06 2014 at 1:54pm
@bbeautyful yes i'm aware TEA is a neutralizer, it is practically the base of everything that has been mentioned. "TEA reacts with acids and neutralizes to form salts in water based products". The point is supposed to be that TEA does react with acids to neutralize the ph and it because of that forms salts. I was going by the order of the ingredients, but either way the fact of the matter is the relationship of these two ingredients is that they will neutralize the other. Whether acid or base is added to the other first, both will neutralize the other. Since Polyacrylate is less in amount than the TEA in this ingredient list it is fair to assume it is being used to lower the ph of the TEA. It is going form the same compound so it really does not make a difference either way.

Ingredients for Wetline: WATER, CARBOMER, TRIETHANOLAMINE, POLYACRYLATE ACID, GLYCERIN, FRAGANCE, METHYLISOTIAZOLINONE, METHOXY, CINNAMIDOPROPYL HYDROXYSULTAINE, PANTHENOL, ALOE VERA EXTRACT, TETRASODIUM EDTA, COLORANT FD&C VIOLET #2

It is not extreme to associate TEA with ethanol, it is an ethanolamine, an amino alcohol and research shows that it behaves the same way as ethanol in the context of what was being talked about in the post. It is that alcohol characteristic that makes the difference whether the product containing TEA is water based or oil based. Amino alcohols (like ethanolamine) themselves are in fact drying once denatured.

I also never said that the denaturation due to proteins was the exact same as denatured alcohol. I stated that denaturation of alcohol due to heating like discussed in the post, is actually different than if the alcohol was already denatured before adding it to the gel. "Triethanolamine is an aminoalcohol. Neutralizes acids to form SALTS plus water in exothermic reactions." So I'm being very specific about heating and provided a real life examples compared side by side to show that you cannot get a completely clear gel with out heating it the way described in the post, and it absolutely is in line with what was described in the study.  That is why I included the photos of the aubrey organics gel. It contains denatured alcohol and a made a point to specifically contrast it with the type of denaturing I was talking about. I emphasized that though they are both being denatured, the way it is denatured (no heating, before heating, or after heating, etc) is what matters. How exactly an alcohol was denatured before being added to the gel is kind of irrelevant because I was talking specifically about denaturing due to heat when done in a specific order, to get the clear gel result. So what you are saying doesn't conflict with anything I said.

There may not be only one way to get gel to look Crystal clear, but the parameters of what I was talking about in this post were extremely specific so don't try to over generalize it. I said over and over that if the gel actually contains TEA or alcohol and it is crystal clear, (it will always contain an acid along with it) then you can assume it has been heated to be denatured. There may be other ways to get gels crystal clear, but if they don't contain TEA or alcohol, then they are not what I am talking about. BTW you say you have made crystal clear gels before but I am not inclined to believe that unless you show what product it is you are talking about. How should I just take your word for it? Provide proof, pictures. How do I know your "crystal clear" isn't just slightly opalescent or foggy like the aubrey organic or even giovanni LA styling gel? Plus you never specified the ingredients in said product, so it may not even apply to what I am saying.

Yes the polyacrylate acid is a holding agent too. So? That doesn't take away from the fact that TEA is helping to increase the viscosity as well, and is also contributing to the hold in this gel. Why would we assume that only one ingredient is relevant to the hold? Plus the one furthest down the list? If I had a gel that contained only water and aloe vera gel, vs a gel that had water, aloe vera gel, marshmallow root and burdock root, does that mean that the aloe vera being a holding agent makes the fact that the other extracts are holding agents irrelevant? Plus many gels are 80% water. But why is it that KCCC didn't give me bald spots and all the gels I had tried with TEA did? No, the other ingredients in the formulation are still having their effect and contributing the the behavior of the gel and its effect on your hair.

When it comes to products mentioning it is 80% water means nothing. Even relaxers can contain but 2% lye. But that is still the active agent. And even if it was a .5% lye relaxer, if I walked around with it on my hair all day and did not rinse it out until the morning, and kept reapplying it, that obviously would cause accumulative damage as well despite being so mild.




Edited by pinkecube - Sep 07 2014 at 1:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharri23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 11 2014 at 8:40pm
Hey pinke quick question

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elGyAigTM5A

According to this video you can make a hair gel with only water, carbomer and TEA. Why is the
polyacrylate acid needed? Is TEA still bad even without the polyacrylate acid? They only used 2-3 drops of TEA.

I ask this because I want to start making my own products and I wanted to know if I can use a small amount of TEA without anyone having problems. Also I really need help figuring out other ingredients to put in my hair gel. Is there anyway we can do a skype conversation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinkecube Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2014 at 9:06am
Originally posted by aharri23 aharri23 wrote:

Hey pinke quick question

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elGyAigTM5A

According to this video you can make a hair gel with only water, carbomer and TEA. Why is the
polyacrylate acid needed? Is TEA still bad even without the polyacrylate acid? They only used 2-3 drops of TEA.

I ask this because I want to start making my own products and I wanted to know if I can use a small amount of TEA without anyone having problems. Also I really need help figuring out other ingredients to put in my hair gel. Is there anyway we can do a skype conversation?
I wouldn't deal with TEA at all. I have worked ecostyler gel to bits. To the point where I only put a small amount and mixed it with sheabutter and olive oil and conditioner. Even though the hold was nearly non-existant for the gel, it still gave me baldspots. No matter how much I diluted it, the baldspot kept getting noticably bigger and more hair strands around the area would all of a sudden become half as long with out shedding. There are ways to make gel and you don't need TEA you can just use carbomer.

In my searching and trialing during that time I came across a gel that had sodium carbomer in it as the second ingredient and it didn't cause me any breakage.This was a time where I was buying a lot of gels and trying to see whether I could use it. I still have it, the proclaim styling gel with argan oil. (I snagged this picture off the internet of the inside of the container)

http://questfortheperfectcurl.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/wpid-20120205_173540.jpg

It is also a cloudy opalecent gel, looking past the color it is not completely see through or crystal clear like the wetline and ecostyler and even fruit of the earth aloe gel(which I have used before btw and it did cause thinning and hair strands in the area started getting shorter with out signs of shedding). I wouldn't recommend the proclaim though, since it does have other drying ingredients and the hold sucked. But there are plenty of ways to make gel with out the use of TEA. The poly acrylate acid is contained with in the carbomer. TEA cannot be used in hair products period with out something to neutralize the ph.


Edited by pinkecube - Sep 14 2014 at 9:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote naturallyme247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2014 at 7:59pm
@pinkecube Damn girl! You know your stuff!
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