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TokyoRose View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by NewFreedom11 NewFreedom11 wrote:

Well, you didn't PM me either, so boo hoo. You didn't address me at the source, you didn't use names, you didn't PM me, you took it to another section where you just knew  you would get other gullible co-signs. Typical Christian hypocrisy. And if we talk about a waste of intelligence, at least I can consider myself an intellectual and analytical person. You don't even take advantage of proper English grammar, neither do you use proper punctuation. And you're in undergrad typing that way?! LOL What the hell is "&&p.s." "respect n tact"?! LOL You don't spell properly here, which means it's not first nature for you to do so, so you probably don't spell things or use proper grammar anywhere else. At this point, it's painfully obvious! THAT is pathetic! And you're worthless. I'm done being tactful with you Christians. You poke he bull but can't take the horns. DEAL WITH IT!

Also, you don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm actually quite happy. Approve Happier now than I ever was as a Christian. Don't feel bad for me. I'm not the one that still believes in a ghost man in the sky coming back to save them and make them feel important. You will NEVER be fulfilled, because there is no god and it will never answer you. You people make things up in your head and call them "god's answers". lol Good one! And again, with the attitude and tone you used in the TTT section, you're not that innocent either. Washed your hands of me? LOL Are you saying I'm a dirty non-believer? Maybe I need to be washed in the blood of Jesus, huh? LOL Too hilarious! G.T.F.O.H.W.T.B.S!

let me address this last ignorant, disrespectful, tactless statement before i go...

if i am wrong about my beliefs, then i would have spent my entire life believing in someone who gave me the strength to go from day to day in this miserable world, has always answered my prayers in a timely manner & in my opinion,  has never steered me in the wrong direction. (now, that's fulfillment.)
no harm done. 

&& if you're wrong about your beliefs, then you've committed the ultimate sin n will have to pay for it when he revokes your opportunity for ever lasting life. umm, the way i see it you are the one who will never be fulfilled.

goooooooooodbye. Wink


Um...I don't think you've spent enough time down here to know that we don't really do the Pascal's Wager argument.  Doesn't really hold a lot of water. It has also been shot down a lot. 



Your answer about what if we are wrong about not being Christian is precisely why I stay away from Christianity.  Why in the world would I pray to a being that gets its jollys off by eternally torturing people for what they've done over a mere 80 years?  That seems vindictive, petty and childish.  It does not show me that this so-called god is advanced in any way, shape or form.  And why isn't this god torturing itself for allowing bad things to happen to good people?  To allow children to starve or to prevent people from providing for their families?  What if I don't WANT to live forever?  Not everyone does.

Oh, and may I add the ultimate in childishness this god plays?  It's called faith.  There are people who believed and asked for a sign and even asked for god to reveal itself and nothing happened.  They waited and got nothing.  And the believers, not god, get to make excuses for it.  You didn't pray hard enough.  You weren't ready.  You have to go to church.  Etc.  There is always an excuse, but never the evidence a non-believer needs.  It's a never ending cycle.  I also have to get into the issue of god and its omnipotence.  Which no believer has ever been able to address.  I'll save it for another thread, though.

People who talk about what they are going to experience instead of taking the opportunity to experience NOW, IMHO are not fulfilled.  Why would you be, if you are constantly spending your life looking to the after life for fulfillment?  It is not rational.  Why not take off on a trip around the world for a year?  Start a cooking class.  Tell the people in your life that you love them and they are important?  Those are far better ways of seeking fulfillment.  Enjoy what's right in front of you, for goodness sakes.





Edited by TokyoRose - Dec 06 2011 at 7:50am
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csungrl09 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by NewFreedom11 NewFreedom11 wrote:

Well, you didn't PM me either, so boo hoo. You didn't address me at the source, you didn't use names, you didn't PM me, you took it to another section where you just knew  you would get other gullible co-signs. Typical Christian hypocrisy. And if we talk about a waste of intelligence, at least I can consider myself an intellectual and analytical person. You don't even take advantage of proper English grammar, neither do you use proper punctuation. And you're in undergrad typing that way?! LOL What the hell is "&&p.s." "respect n tact"?! LOL You don't spell properly here, which means it's not first nature for you to do so, so you probably don't spell things or use proper grammar anywhere else. At this point, it's painfully obvious! THAT is pathetic! And you're worthless. I'm done being tactful with you Christians. You poke he bull but can't take the horns. DEAL WITH IT!

Also, you don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm actually quite happy. Approve Happier now than I ever was as a Christian. Don't feel bad for me. I'm not the one that still believes in a ghost man in the sky coming back to save them and make them feel important. You will NEVER be fulfilled, because there is no god and it will never answer you. You people make things up in your head and call them "god's answers". lol Good one! And again, with the attitude and tone you used in the TTT section, you're not that innocent either. Washed your hands of me? LOL Are you saying I'm a dirty non-believer? Maybe I need to be washed in the blood of Jesus, huh? LOL Too hilarious! G.T.F.O.H.W.T.B.S!

let me address this last ignorant, disrespectful, tactless statement before i go...

if i am wrong about my beliefs, then i would have spent my entire life believing in someone who gave me the strength to go from day to day in this miserable world, has always answered my prayers in a timely manner & in my opinion,  has never steered me in the wrong direction. (now, that's fulfillment.)
no harm done. 

&& if you're wrong about your beliefs, then you've committed the ultimate sin n will have to pay for it when he revokes your opportunity for ever lasting life. umm, the way i see it you are the one who will never be fulfilled.

goooooooooodbye. Wink


Um...I don't think you've spent enough time down here to know that we don't really do the Pascal's Wager argument.  Doesn't really hold a lot of water. It has also been shot down a lot. 



Your answer about what if we are wrong about not being Christian is precisely why I stay away from Christianity.  [1st]Why in the world would I pray to a being that gets its jollys off by eternally torturing people for what they've done over a mere 80 years?  That seems vindictive, petty and childish.  It does not show me that this so-called god is advanced in any way, shape or form.  And why isn't this god torturing itself for allowing bad things to happen to good people?  To allow children to starve or to prevent people from providing for their families?  What if I don't WANT to live forever?  Not everyone does.

Oh, and may I add the ultimate in childishness this god plays?  It's called faith.  [2nd]There are people who believed and asked for a sign and even asked for god to reveal itself and nothing happened.  They waited and got nothing.  And the believers, not god, get to make excuses for it.  You didn't pray hard enough.  You weren't ready.  You have to go to church.  Etc.  There is always an excuse, but never the evidence a non-believer needs.  It's a never ending cycle.  I also have to get into the issue of god and its omnipotence.  Which no believer has ever been able to address.  I'll save it for another thread, though.

People who talk about what they are going to experience instead of taking the opportunity to experience NOW, IMHO are not fulfilled. [3rd] Why would you be, if you are constantly spending your life looking to the after life for fulfillment?  It is not rational.  Why not take off on a trip around the world for a year?  Start a cooking class.  Tell the people in your life that you love them and they are important?  Those are far better ways of seeking fulfillment.  Enjoy what's right in front of you, for goodness sakes.




tokyo,

thank you for continuing to be respectful through all this. i really appreciate your respect and honesty. despite us having different beliefs when it comes to matters of the supernatural, i still feel as if you & i can talk about things (which i don't feel is possible with other members...) so i thank you. 

but to address the bolded statements

1st: I have thought about this before. i think all christians & non-christians have thought about this at one time or another. it does seem cruel that God would punish those who have done wrong in their lives, but how far fetched is that really? parents punish children everyday. God, being the father, has the right to punish a disobedient child...especially when he gives you tool to handle the situations you face in life (the bible) & the free will to make the decision up until the time you die, to follow him, but one choses otherwise. I do not believe that God will completely condemn even the worse of sinners, unless they have totally rejected him. I, for one, do not believe that God will punish someone who is a habitual liar, or someone who is gay, or someone who has a child out of wedlock, ect...i think that the bible makes it clear that the ultimate sin and the one that people will really have to own up to is their lack of faith in him. (i think that PEOPLE have a way of misinterpreting the bible in order to scare or isolate others. that's wrong & it makes everyone who believes look bad.) In addition, sin was the consequence for adam & eve's choice to partake of the apple in the garden of eden. there choice caused the issues that are happening in the world. ultimately it is the devil's world we are in...now we have the choice to live above the influence and come back into God's graces. only the strong will survive. Part of me feels like God did this to weed out the people who are not worthy of having everlasting life. Just like an exclusive club, there has to be a criteria...if everyone was allowed to join the club, it'd be called earth.

2nd: Personally, I have asked the lord in prayer for answers on numerous occasions. & i tell you this (you can believe it or not), he has answered. i know you can't understand this unless its happened to you, but honestly I have seen too many things not to believe in his power. when i am down n out, i pick up my bible or devotional, flip to a random page & right there in front of me is a passage that talks about the very thing I am going through. every time I have been within inches of hitting a brick wall, a door gets installed in that wall &i just walk right on through. that's not a coincidence if it happens more than twice. However, God does not help those who have not first helped themselves...so it may not be the case with everyone. God reveals himself in so many ways, all of those "coincidences" are not just happenings...they are his ways of saying "im still here". that's just my opinion. has he revealed himself physically? no, not since jesus walked the earth. he is a spirit, not a human being. 

3rd: this is another misconception about alot of christians. maybe you are right about some, but you're not right about me. I spend each day living for today. I seek fulfillment everyday, just like everyone else...but i know that that's not the only thing that counts. after I am fulfilled here on earth, then i may have the opportunity to be fulfilled in the afterlife...in a way better atmosphere than that of earth. Thinking ahead doesn't mean you're ignoring whats in front of you. i am in college now, enjoying my college experience but I came to college in order to find a better job in the future. same kind of concept.

that's the thing about faith, its 100% personal (&it's hard to prove b/c not everything is known). its not the same for everyone. &&you have to have faith to see what i see. our experiences are going to be different, not more or less meaningful...just different. 

& as for the video...what if he's wrong? he never answered the question. 



Edited by csungrl09 - Dec 06 2011 at 10:09pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 10:52pm
Wow @ the rudeness laced in these posts.

I respect you, Tokyo.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by NewFreedom11 NewFreedom11 wrote:

Well, you didn't PM me either, so boo hoo. You didn't address me at the source, you didn't use names, you didn't PM me, you took it to another section where you just knew  you would get other gullible co-signs. Typical Christian hypocrisy. And if we talk about a waste of intelligence, at least I can consider myself an intellectual and analytical person. You don't even take advantage of proper English grammar, neither do you use proper punctuation. And you're in undergrad typing that way?! LOL What the hell is "&&p.s." "respect n tact"?! LOL You don't spell properly here, which means it's not first nature for you to do so, so you probably don't spell things or use proper grammar anywhere else. At this point, it's painfully obvious! THAT is pathetic! And you're worthless. I'm done being tactful with you Christians. You poke he bull but can't take the horns. DEAL WITH IT!

Also, you don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm actually quite happy. Approve Happier now than I ever was as a Christian. Don't feel bad for me. I'm not the one that still believes in a ghost man in the sky coming back to save them and make them feel important. You will NEVER be fulfilled, because there is no god and it will never answer you. You people make things up in your head and call them "god's answers". lol Good one! And again, with the attitude and tone you used in the TTT section, you're not that innocent either. Washed your hands of me? LOL Are you saying I'm a dirty non-believer? Maybe I need to be washed in the blood of Jesus, huh? LOL Too hilarious! G.T.F.O.H.W.T.B.S!

let me address this last ignorant, disrespectful, tactless statement before i go...

if i am wrong about my beliefs, then i would have spent my entire life believing in someone who gave me the strength to go from day to day in this miserable world, has always answered my prayers in a timely manner & in my opinion,  has never steered me in the wrong direction. (now, that's fulfillment.)
no harm done. 

&& if you're wrong about your beliefs, then you've committed the ultimate sin n will have to pay for it when he revokes your opportunity for ever lasting life. umm, the way i see it you are the one who will never be fulfilled.

goooooooooodbye. Wink


Um...I don't think you've spent enough time down here to know that we don't really do the Pascal's Wager argument.  Doesn't really hold a lot of water. It has also been shot down a lot. 



Your answer about what if we are wrong about not being Christian is precisely why I stay away from Christianity.  [1st]Why in the world would I pray to a being that gets its jollys off by eternally torturing people for what they've done over a mere 80 years?  That seems vindictive, petty and childish.  It does not show me that this so-called god is advanced in any way, shape or form.  And why isn't this god torturing itself for allowing bad things to happen to good people?  To allow children to starve or to prevent people from providing for their families?  What if I don't WANT to live forever?  Not everyone does.

Oh, and may I add the ultimate in childishness this god plays?  It's called faith.  [2nd]There are people who believed and asked for a sign and even asked for god to reveal itself and nothing happened.  They waited and got nothing.  And the believers, not god, get to make excuses for it.  You didn't pray hard enough.  You weren't ready.  You have to go to church.  Etc.  There is always an excuse, but never the evidence a non-believer needs.  It's a never ending cycle.  I also have to get into the issue of god and its omnipotence.  Which no believer has ever been able to address.  I'll save it for another thread, though.

People who talk about what they are going to experience instead of taking the opportunity to experience NOW, IMHO are not fulfilled. [3rd] Why would you be, if you are constantly spending your life looking to the after life for fulfillment?  It is not rational.  Why not take off on a trip around the world for a year?  Start a cooking class.  Tell the people in your life that you love them and they are important?  Those are far better ways of seeking fulfillment.  Enjoy what's right in front of you, for goodness sakes.




tokyo,

thank you for continuing to be respectful through all this. i really appreciate your respect and honesty. despite us having different beliefs when it comes to matters of the supernatural, i still feel as if you & i can talk about things (which i don't feel is possible with other members...) so i thank you. 

but to address the bolded statements

1st: I have thought about this before. i think all christians & non-christians have thought about this at one time or another. it does seem cruel that God would punish those who have done wrong in their lives, but how far fetched is that really? parents punish children everyday. God, being the father, has the right to punish a disobedient child...especially when he gives you tool to handle the situations you face in life (the bible) & the free will to make the decision up until the time you die, to follow him, but one choses otherwise. I do not believe that God will completely condemn even the worse of sinners, unless they have totally rejected him. I, for one, do not believe that God will punish someone who is a habitual liar, or someone who is gay, or someone who has a child out of wedlock, ect...i think that the bible makes it clear that the ultimate sin and the one that people will really have to own up to is their lack of faith in him. (i think that PEOPLE have a way of misinterpreting the bible in order to scare or isolate others. that's wrong & it makes everyone who believes look bad.) In addition, sin was the consequence for adam & eve's choice to partake of the apple in the garden of eden. there choice caused the issues that are happening in the world. ultimately it is the devil's world we are in...now we have the choice to live above the influence and come back into God's graces. only the strong will survive. Part of me feels like God did this to weed out the people who are not worthy of having everlasting life. Just like an exclusive club, there has to be a criteria...if everyone was allowed to join the club, it'd be called earth.

2nd: Personally, I have asked the lord in prayer for answers on numerous occasions. & i tell you this (you can believe it or not), he has answered. i know you can't understand this unless its happened to you, but honestly I have seen too many things not to believe in his power. when i am down n out, i pick up my bible or devotional, flip to a random page & right there in front of me is a passage that talks about the very thing I am going through. every time I have been within inches of hitting a brick wall, a door gets installed in that wall &i just walk right on through. that's not a coincidence if it happens more than twice. However, God does not help those who have not first helped themselves...so it may not be the case with everyone. God reveals himself in so many ways, all of those "coincidences" are not just happenings...they are his ways of saying "im still here". that's just my opinion. has he revealed himself physically? no, not since jesus walked the earth. he is a spirit, not a human being. 

3rd: this is another misconception about alot of christians. maybe you are right about some, but you're not right about me. I spend each day living for today. I seek fulfillment everyday, just like everyone else...but i know that that's not the only thing that counts. after I am fulfilled here on earth, then i may have the opportunity to be fulfilled in the afterlife...in a way better atmosphere than that of earth. Thinking ahead doesn't mean you're ignoring whats in front of you. i am in college now, enjoying my college experience but I came to college in order to find a better job in the future. same kind of concept.

that's the thing about faith, its 100% personal (&it's hard to prove b/c not everything is known). its not the same for everyone. &&you have to have faith to see what i see. our experiences are going to be different, not more or less meaningful...just different. 

& as for the video...what if he's wrong? he never answered the question. 



Actually, he did answer the question.  It's just that you weren't satisfied with the answer.  He was also quite cleverly turning her argument against her to prove a point: that it is not known either way, and therefore one cannot be so arrogant as to believe they are the ones that are right.  Dawkins admits that he is 99% Atheist, but he is open to the possibility of a god the same way he is open to the possibility of a unicorn existing...and you will find that many others such as Sam Harris and Stephen Hawking present their views in much the same way.

Much of what you have presented is not really evidence, but anecdotes about your experience.  It doesn't hold a lot of weight in the scientific world, not because it's not respected, but it can't be measured or reproduced.  Scientists want to know how things work.  People who believe just accept it at face value.  For some of us, that is not acceptable because it leads to irrational thinking.  We once believed the sun revolved around the earth, that it was acceptable to own slaves and stone women to death for adultery.  Secularists and people who went against the church were responsible for changing that. 

As for "Adam" and "Eve," again, this is a story that can't really be validated and for many historians, it holds no weight what so ever.  Biblical accounts are not reliable at all.  But the way in which religious people escape it is proving the bible is valid--by using the bible.  The problem is that the bible is so contradictory and it has inaccurately misrepresented history on so many occasions that it can't be considered anything more than a fictitious version of events.  The bible has TWO completely separate accounts of the resurrection.  The most important story for modern day Christians--and it can't even get that straight?  It says that Jews were slaves of Egyptians, forced to build the pyramids--this is completely false and very much contradictory to ancient Egyptian culture and society.  The Jews were no where near the Egyptian pyramid builders (who were VERY WELL treated).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 11:51pm
LOL Tokyo, you have way more patience for these people than I do. Thank you for caring enough to bestow some intelligence on them. It honestly goes in one ear and out the other for most of them. I just choose not to humor them. Dialogue, even after being shown concrete evidence, is met with "well, we can just agree to disagree. I believe god is real. I'll pray for you." and other subjective reasoning, as if that in itself isn't offensive on numerous fronts. I'm tired of taking the high road with these people and they get to sling soft mud. It feels good to throw back all the mud that has accumulated. But kudos to you, lady.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 12:04am
Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by NewFreedom11 NewFreedom11 wrote:

Well, you didn't PM me either, so boo hoo. You didn't address me at the source, you didn't use names, you didn't PM me, you took it to another section where you just knew  you would get other gullible co-signs. Typical Christian hypocrisy. And if we talk about a waste of intelligence, at least I can consider myself an intellectual and analytical person. You don't even take advantage of proper English grammar, neither do you use proper punctuation. And you're in undergrad typing that way?! LOL What the hell is "&&p.s." "respect n tact"?! LOL You don't spell properly here, which means it's not first nature for you to do so, so you probably don't spell things or use proper grammar anywhere else. At this point, it's painfully obvious! THAT is pathetic! And you're worthless. I'm done being tactful with you Christians. You poke he bull but can't take the horns. DEAL WITH IT!

Also, you don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm actually quite happy. Approve Happier now than I ever was as a Christian. Don't feel bad for me. I'm not the one that still believes in a ghost man in the sky coming back to save them and make them feel important. You will NEVER be fulfilled, because there is no god and it will never answer you. You people make things up in your head and call them "god's answers". lol Good one! And again, with the attitude and tone you used in the TTT section, you're not that innocent either. Washed your hands of me? LOL Are you saying I'm a dirty non-believer? Maybe I need to be washed in the blood of Jesus, huh? LOL Too hilarious! G.T.F.O.H.W.T.B.S!

let me address this last ignorant, disrespectful, tactless statement before i go...

if i am wrong about my beliefs, then i would have spent my entire life believing in someone who gave me the strength to go from day to day in this miserable world, has always answered my prayers in a timely manner & in my opinion,  has never steered me in the wrong direction. (now, that's fulfillment.)
no harm done. 

&& if you're wrong about your beliefs, then you've committed the ultimate sin n will have to pay for it when he revokes your opportunity for ever lasting life. umm, the way i see it you are the one who will never be fulfilled.

goooooooooodbye. Wink


Um...I don't think you've spent enough time down here to know that we don't really do the Pascal's Wager argument.  Doesn't really hold a lot of water. It has also been shot down a lot. 



Your answer about what if we are wrong about not being Christian is precisely why I stay away from Christianity.  [1st]Why in the world would I pray to a being that gets its jollys off by eternally torturing people for what they've done over a mere 80 years?  That seems vindictive, petty and childish.  It does not show me that this so-called god is advanced in any way, shape or form.  And why isn't this god torturing itself for allowing bad things to happen to good people?  To allow children to starve or to prevent people from providing for their families?  What if I don't WANT to live forever?  Not everyone does.

Oh, and may I add the ultimate in childishness this god plays?  It's called faith.  [2nd]There are people who believed and asked for a sign and even asked for god to reveal itself and nothing happened.  They waited and got nothing.  And the believers, not god, get to make excuses for it.  You didn't pray hard enough.  You weren't ready.  You have to go to church.  Etc.  There is always an excuse, but never the evidence a non-believer needs.  It's a never ending cycle.  I also have to get into the issue of god and its omnipotence.  Which no believer has ever been able to address.  I'll save it for another thread, though.

People who talk about what they are going to experience instead of taking the opportunity to experience NOW, IMHO are not fulfilled. [3rd] Why would you be, if you are constantly spending your life looking to the after life for fulfillment?  It is not rational.  Why not take off on a trip around the world for a year?  Start a cooking class.  Tell the people in your life that you love them and they are important?  Those are far better ways of seeking fulfillment.  Enjoy what's right in front of you, for goodness sakes.




tokyo,

thank you for continuing to be respectful through all this. i really appreciate your respect and honesty. despite us having different beliefs when it comes to matters of the supernatural, i still feel as if you & i can talk about things (which i don't feel is possible with other members...) so i thank you. 

but to address the bolded statements

1st: I have thought about this before. i think all christians & non-christians have thought about this at one time or another. it does seem cruel that God would punish those who have done wrong in their lives, but how far fetched is that really? parents punish children everyday. God, being the father, has the right to punish a disobedient child...especially when he gives you tool to handle the situations you face in life (the bible) & the free will to make the decision up until the time you die, to follow him, but one choses otherwise. I do not believe that God will completely condemn even the worse of sinners, unless they have totally rejected him. I, for one, do not believe that God will punish someone who is a habitual liar, or someone who is gay, or someone who has a child out of wedlock, ect...i think that the bible makes it clear that the ultimate sin and the one that people will really have to own up to is their lack of faith in him. (i think that PEOPLE have a way of misinterpreting the bible in order to scare or isolate others. that's wrong & it makes everyone who believes look bad.) In addition, sin was the consequence for adam & eve's choice to partake of the apple in the garden of eden. there choice caused the issues that are happening in the world. ultimately it is the devil's world we are in...now we have the choice to live above the influence and come back into God's graces. only the strong will survive. Part of me feels like God did this to weed out the people who are not worthy of having everlasting life. Just like an exclusive club, there has to be a criteria...if everyone was allowed to join the club, it'd be called earth.

2nd: Personally, I have asked the lord in prayer for answers on numerous occasions. & i tell you this (you can believe it or not), he has answered. i know you can't understand this unless its happened to you, but honestly I have seen too many things not to believe in his power. when i am down n out, i pick up my bible or devotional, flip to a random page & right there in front of me is a passage that talks about the very thing I am going through. every time I have been within inches of hitting a brick wall, a door gets installed in that wall &i just walk right on through. that's not a coincidence if it happens more than twice. However, God does not help those who have not first helped themselves...so it may not be the case with everyone. God reveals himself in so many ways, all of those "coincidences" are not just happenings...they are his ways of saying "im still here". that's just my opinion. has he revealed himself physically? no, not since jesus walked the earth. he is a spirit, not a human being. 

3rd: this is another misconception about alot of christians. maybe you are right about some, but you're not right about me. I spend each day living for today. I seek fulfillment everyday, just like everyone else...but i know that that's not the only thing that counts. after I am fulfilled here on earth, then i may have the opportunity to be fulfilled in the afterlife...in a way better atmosphere than that of earth. Thinking ahead doesn't mean you're ignoring whats in front of you. i am in college now, enjoying my college experience but I came to college in order to find a better job in the future. same kind of concept.

that's the thing about faith, its 100% personal (&it's hard to prove b/c not everything is known). its not the same for everyone. &&you have to have faith to see what i see. our experiences are going to be different, not more or less meaningful...just different. 

& as for the video...what if he's wrong? he never answered the question. 



Actually, he did answer the question.  It's just that you weren't satisfied with the answer.  He was also quite cleverly turning her argument against her to prove a point: that it is not known either way, and therefore one cannot be so arrogant as to believe they are the ones that are right.  Dawkins admits that he is 99% Atheist, but he is open to the possibility of a god the same way he is open to the possibility of a unicorn existing...and you will find that many others such as Sam Harris and Stephen Hawking present their views in much the same way.

Much of what you have presented is not really evidence, but anecdotes about your experience.  It doesn't hold a lot of weight in the scientific world, not because it's not respected, but it can't be measured or reproduced.  Scientists want to know how things work.  People who believe just accept it at face value.  For some of us, that is not acceptable because it leads to irrational thinking.  We once believed the sun revolved around the earth, that it was acceptable to own slaves and stone women to death for adultery.  Secularists and people who went against the church were responsible for changing that. 

As for "Adam" and "Eve," again, this is a story that can't really be validated and for many historians, it holds no weight what so ever.  Biblical accounts are not reliable at all.  But the way in which religious people escape it is proving the bible is valid--by using the bible.  The problem is that the bible is so contradictory and it has inaccurately misrepresented history on so many occasions that it can't be considered anything more than a fictitious version of events.  The bible has TWO completely separate accounts of the resurrection.  The most important story for modern day Christians--and it can't even get that straight?  It says that Jews were slaves of Egyptians, forced to build the pyramids--this is completely false and very much contradictory to ancient Egyptian culture and society.  The Jews were no where near the Egyptian pyramid builders (who were VERY WELL treated).

okay, maybe i was looking for another answer about what he would do if he was wrong. not whether or not he thought he was wrong, cause that is obvious. he is arrogant enough to believe he is right though, so I don't understand the point he was proving. I think if he worded it differently it would have had more of an impact on me. 

& much of what i've presented are anecdotes b/c thats what having faith is... ("confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a belief that is not based on proof.") its a personal story or journey in belief. it can't really be explained unless you know exactly how it felt to see, be or hear what i have seen, where i have been or what i have heard. i believe i said that in the previous post. i don't expect you to understand it, just want you to know that there are people out there who have experienced things that you can never understand unless you have been there...doesn't mean its not true cause you've never experienced it. 

i have a love for science & understand that some people need to be able to touch, see, taste, hear and feel things to know that they are there, but for all you know, the things that are in the science books you are reading (not all of course) could be falsified the same way you say the bible is a false history. I am sure you have not reproduced or measured everything you have read about in the field of science...but you believe it b/c someone said that they have evidence. science is also not always correct, but constantly edited so nothing is really set in stone there either. i don't have anything against science at all. I have many family members who are scientists for NIH but remain true to their faith. the two don't always have to at ends with each other.

recently, scientists have reason to believe that man kind as we know it today can be traced back to two individuals in africa. one male, scientific adam, and one female, mitochondrial eve. sounds kind of like the story of adam and eve to me... a story that very well might be proven to be true eventually. the bible has been translated so many times, that dates, names and words may have been misinterpreted (hence the contradictions and historical inaccuracies), but the point of the stories have remained. so what if science was to validate the story? then what? (this is a rhetorical question.)

at the end of the day, believer or not, some or all of what we each believe may be wrong. we can defend our sides all day but I know better than to hold my breath. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 12:15am

EXCELLENT POST.


Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by NewFreedom11 NewFreedom11 wrote:

Well, you didn't PM me either, so boo hoo. You didn't address me at the source, you didn't use names, you didn't PM me, you took it to another section where you just knew  you would get other gullible co-signs. Typical Christian hypocrisy. And if we talk about a waste of intelligence, at least I can consider myself an intellectual and analytical person. You don't even take advantage of proper English grammar, neither do you use proper punctuation. And you're in undergrad typing that way?! LOL What the hell is "&&p.s." "respect n tact"?! LOL You don't spell properly here, which means it's not first nature for you to do so, so you probably don't spell things or use proper grammar anywhere else. At this point, it's painfully obvious! THAT is pathetic! And you're worthless. I'm done being tactful with you Christians. You poke he bull but can't take the horns. DEAL WITH IT!

Also, you don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm actually quite happy. Approve Happier now than I ever was as a Christian. Don't feel bad for me. I'm not the one that still believes in a ghost man in the sky coming back to save them and make them feel important. You will NEVER be fulfilled, because there is no god and it will never answer you. You people make things up in your head and call them "god's answers". lol Good one! And again, with the attitude and tone you used in the TTT section, you're not that innocent either. Washed your hands of me? LOL Are you saying I'm a dirty non-believer? Maybe I need to be washed in the blood of Jesus, huh? LOL Too hilarious! G.T.F.O.H.W.T.B.S!

let me address this last ignorant, disrespectful, tactless statement before i go...

if i am wrong about my beliefs, then i would have spent my entire life believing in someone who gave me the strength to go from day to day in this miserable world, has always answered my prayers in a timely manner & in my opinion,  has never steered me in the wrong direction. (now, that's fulfillment.)
no harm done. 

&& if you're wrong about your beliefs, then you've committed the ultimate sin n will have to pay for it when he revokes your opportunity for ever lasting life. umm, the way i see it you are the one who will never be fulfilled.

goooooooooodbye. Wink


Um...I don't think you've spent enough time down here to know that we don't really do the Pascal's Wager argument.  Doesn't really hold a lot of water. It has also been shot down a lot. 



Your answer about what if we are wrong about not being Christian is precisely why I stay away from Christianity.  [1st]Why in the world would I pray to a being that gets its jollys off by eternally torturing people for what they've done over a mere 80 years?  That seems vindictive, petty and childish.  It does not show me that this so-called god is advanced in any way, shape or form.  And why isn't this god torturing itself for allowing bad things to happen to good people?  To allow children to starve or to prevent people from providing for their families?  What if I don't WANT to live forever?  Not everyone does.

Oh, and may I add the ultimate in childishness this god plays?  It's called faith.  [2nd]There are people who believed and asked for a sign and even asked for god to reveal itself and nothing happened.  They waited and got nothing.  And the believers, not god, get to make excuses for it.  You didn't pray hard enough.  You weren't ready.  You have to go to church.  Etc.  There is always an excuse, but never the evidence a non-believer needs.  It's a never ending cycle.  I also have to get into the issue of god and its omnipotence.  Which no believer has ever been able to address.  I'll save it for another thread, though.

People who talk about what they are going to experience instead of taking the opportunity to experience NOW, IMHO are not fulfilled. [3rd] Why would you be, if you are constantly spending your life looking to the after life for fulfillment?  It is not rational.  Why not take off on a trip around the world for a year?  Start a cooking class.  Tell the people in your life that you love them and they are important?  Those are far better ways of seeking fulfillment.  Enjoy what's right in front of you, for goodness sakes.




tokyo,

thank you for continuing to be respectful through all this. i really appreciate your respect and honesty. despite us having different beliefs when it comes to matters of the supernatural, i still feel as if you & i can talk about things (which i don't feel is possible with other members...) so i thank you. 

but to address the bolded statements

1st: I have thought about this before. i think all christians & non-christians have thought about this at one time or another. it does seem cruel that God would punish those who have done wrong in their lives, but how far fetched is that really? parents punish children everyday. God, being the father, has the right to punish a disobedient child...especially when he gives you tool to handle the situations you face in life (the bible) & the free will to make the decision up until the time you die, to follow him, but one choses otherwise. I do not believe that God will completely condemn even the worse of sinners, unless they have totally rejected him. I, for one, do not believe that God will punish someone who is a habitual liar, or someone who is gay, or someone who has a child out of wedlock, ect...i think that the bible makes it clear that the ultimate sin and the one that people will really have to own up to is their lack of faith in him. (i think that PEOPLE have a way of misinterpreting the bible in order to scare or isolate others. that's wrong & it makes everyone who believes look bad.) In addition, sin was the consequence for adam & eve's choice to partake of the apple in the garden of eden. there choice caused the issues that are happening in the world. ultimately it is the devil's world we are in...now we have the choice to live above the influence and come back into God's graces. only the strong will survive. Part of me feels like God did this to weed out the people who are not worthy of having everlasting life. Just like an exclusive club, there has to be a criteria...if everyone was allowed to join the club, it'd be called earth.

2nd: Personally, I have asked the lord in prayer for answers on numerous occasions. & i tell you this (you can believe it or not), he has answered. i know you can't understand this unless its happened to you, but honestly I have seen too many things not to believe in his power. when i am down n out, i pick up my bible or devotional, flip to a random page & right there in front of me is a passage that talks about the very thing I am going through. every time I have been within inches of hitting a brick wall, a door gets installed in that wall &i just walk right on through. that's not a coincidence if it happens more than twice. However, God does not help those who have not first helped themselves...so it may not be the case with everyone. God reveals himself in so many ways, all of those "coincidences" are not just happenings...they are his ways of saying "im still here". that's just my opinion. has he revealed himself physically? no, not since jesus walked the earth. he is a spirit, not a human being. 

3rd: this is another misconception about alot of christians. maybe you are right about some, but you're not right about me. I spend each day living for today. I seek fulfillment everyday, just like everyone else...but i know that that's not the only thing that counts. after I am fulfilled here on earth, then i may have the opportunity to be fulfilled in the afterlife...in a way better atmosphere than that of earth. Thinking ahead doesn't mean you're ignoring whats in front of you. i am in college now, enjoying my college experience but I came to college in order to find a better job in the future. same kind of concept.

that's the thing about faith, its 100% personal (&it's hard to prove b/c not everything is known). its not the same for everyone. &&you have to have faith to see what i see. our experiences are going to be different, not more or less meaningful...just different. 

& as for the video...what if he's wrong? he never answered the question. 



Actually, he did answer the question.  It's just that you weren't satisfied with the answer.  He was also quite cleverly turning her argument against her to prove a point: that it is not known either way, and therefore one cannot be so arrogant as to believe they are the ones that are right.  Dawkins admits that he is 99% Atheist, but he is open to the possibility of a god the same way he is open to the possibility of a unicorn existing...and you will find that many others such as Sam Harris and Stephen Hawking present their views in much the same way.

Much of what you have presented is not really evidence, but anecdotes about your experience.  It doesn't hold a lot of weight in the scientific world, not because it's not respected, but it can't be measured or reproduced.  Scientists want to know how things work.  People who believe just accept it at face value.  For some of us, that is not acceptable because it leads to irrational thinking.  We once believed the sun revolved around the earth, that it was acceptable to own slaves and stone women to death for adultery.  Secularists and people who went against the church were responsible for changing that. 

As for "Adam" and "Eve," again, this is a story that can't really be validated and for many historians, it holds no weight what so ever.  Biblical accounts are not reliable at all.  But the way in which religious people escape it is proving the bible is valid--by using the bible.  The problem is that the bible is so contradictory and it has inaccurately misrepresented history on so many occasions that it can't be considered anything more than a fictitious version of events.  The bible has TWO completely separate accounts of the resurrection.  The most important story for modern day Christians--and it can't even get that straight?  It says that Jews were slaves of Egyptians, forced to build the pyramids--this is completely false and very much contradictory to ancient Egyptian culture and society.  The Jews were no where near the Egyptian pyramid builders (who were VERY WELL treated).

okay, maybe i was looking for another answer about what he would do if he was wrong. not whether or not he thought he was wrong, cause that is obvious. he is arrogant enough to believe he is right though, so I don't understand the point he was proving. I think if he worded it differently it would have had more of an impact on me. 

& much of what i've presented are anecdotes b/c thats what having faith is... ("confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a belief that is not based on proof.") its a personal story or journey in belief. it can't really be explained unless you know exactly how it felt to see, be or hear what i have seen, where i have been or what i have heard. i believe i said that in the previous post. i don't expect you to understand it, just want you to know that there are people out there who have experienced things that you can never understand unless you have been there...doesn't mean its not true cause you've never experienced it. 

i have a love for science & understand that some people need to be able to touch, see, taste, hear and feel things to know that they are there, but for all you know, the things that are in the science books you are reading (not all of course) could be falsified the same way you say the bible is a false history. I am sure you have not reproduced or measured everything you have read about in the field of science...but you believe it b/c someone said that they have evidence. science is also not always correct, but constantly edited so nothing is really set in stone there either. i don't have anything against science at all. I have many family members who are scientists for NIH but remain true to their faith. the two don't always have to at ends with each other.

recently, scientists have reason to believe that man kind as we know it today can be traced back to two individuals in africa. one male, scientific adam, and one female, mitochondrial eve. sounds kind of like the story of adam and eve to me... a story that very well might be proven to be true eventually. the bible has been translated so many times, that dates, names and words may have been misinterpreted (hence the contradictions and historical inaccuracies), but the point of the stories have remained. so what if science was to validate the story? then what? (this is a rhetorical question.)

at the end of the day, believer or not, some or all of what we each believe may be wrong. we can defend our sides all day but I know better than to hold my breath. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 12:20am
Not really.

I have to go to work now, but I'll whip out a 2 min lengthy response when I get back.


Originally posted by SpoiledSpicy SpoiledSpicy wrote:


EXCELLENT POST.


Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

Originally posted by csungrl09 csungrl09 wrote:

Originally posted by NewFreedom11 NewFreedom11 wrote:

Well, you didn't PM me either, so boo hoo. You didn't address me at the source, you didn't use names, you didn't PM me, you took it to another section where you just knew  you would get other gullible co-signs. Typical Christian hypocrisy. And if we talk about a waste of intelligence, at least I can consider myself an intellectual and analytical person. You don't even take advantage of proper English grammar, neither do you use proper punctuation. And you're in undergrad typing that way?! LOL What the hell is "&&p.s." "respect n tact"?! LOL You don't spell properly here, which means it's not first nature for you to do so, so you probably don't spell things or use proper grammar anywhere else. At this point, it's painfully obvious! THAT is pathetic! And you're worthless. I'm done being tactful with you Christians. You poke he bull but can't take the horns. DEAL WITH IT!

Also, you don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm actually quite happy. Approve Happier now than I ever was as a Christian. Don't feel bad for me. I'm not the one that still believes in a ghost man in the sky coming back to save them and make them feel important. You will NEVER be fulfilled, because there is no god and it will never answer you. You people make things up in your head and call them "god's answers". lol Good one! And again, with the attitude and tone you used in the TTT section, you're not that innocent either. Washed your hands of me? LOL Are you saying I'm a dirty non-believer? Maybe I need to be washed in the blood of Jesus, huh? LOL Too hilarious! G.T.F.O.H.W.T.B.S!

let me address this last ignorant, disrespectful, tactless statement before i go...

if i am wrong about my beliefs, then i would have spent my entire life believing in someone who gave me the strength to go from day to day in this miserable world, has always answered my prayers in a timely manner & in my opinion,  has never steered me in the wrong direction. (now, that's fulfillment.)
no harm done. 

&& if you're wrong about your beliefs, then you've committed the ultimate sin n will have to pay for it when he revokes your opportunity for ever lasting life. umm, the way i see it you are the one who will never be fulfilled.

goooooooooodbye. Wink


Um...I don't think you've spent enough time down here to know that we don't really do the Pascal's Wager argument.  Doesn't really hold a lot of water. It has also been shot down a lot. 



Your answer about what if we are wrong about not being Christian is precisely why I stay away from Christianity.  [1st]Why in the world would I pray to a being that gets its jollys off by eternally torturing people for what they've done over a mere 80 years?  That seems vindictive, petty and childish.  It does not show me that this so-called god is advanced in any way, shape or form.  And why isn't this god torturing itself for allowing bad things to happen to good people?  To allow children to starve or to prevent people from providing for their families?  What if I don't WANT to live forever?  Not everyone does.

Oh, and may I add the ultimate in childishness this god plays?  It's called faith.  [2nd]There are people who believed and asked for a sign and even asked for god to reveal itself and nothing happened.  They waited and got nothing.  And the believers, not god, get to make excuses for it.  You didn't pray hard enough.  You weren't ready.  You have to go to church.  Etc.  There is always an excuse, but never the evidence a non-believer needs.  It's a never ending cycle.  I also have to get into the issue of god and its omnipotence.  Which no believer has ever been able to address.  I'll save it for another thread, though.

People who talk about what they are going to experience instead of taking the opportunity to experience NOW, IMHO are not fulfilled. [3rd] Why would you be, if you are constantly spending your life looking to the after life for fulfillment?  It is not rational.  Why not take off on a trip around the world for a year?  Start a cooking class.  Tell the people in your life that you love them and they are important?  Those are far better ways of seeking fulfillment.  Enjoy what's right in front of you, for goodness sakes.




tokyo,

thank you for continuing to be respectful through all this. i really appreciate your respect and honesty. despite us having different beliefs when it comes to matters of the supernatural, i still feel as if you & i can talk about things (which i don't feel is possible with other members...) so i thank you. 

but to address the bolded statements

1st: I have thought about this before. i think all christians & non-christians have thought about this at one time or another. it does seem cruel that God would punish those who have done wrong in their lives, but how far fetched is that really? parents punish children everyday. God, being the father, has the right to punish a disobedient child...especially when he gives you tool to handle the situations you face in life (the bible) & the free will to make the decision up until the time you die, to follow him, but one choses otherwise. I do not believe that God will completely condemn even the worse of sinners, unless they have totally rejected him. I, for one, do not believe that God will punish someone who is a habitual liar, or someone who is gay, or someone who has a child out of wedlock, ect...i think that the bible makes it clear that the ultimate sin and the one that people will really have to own up to is their lack of faith in him. (i think that PEOPLE have a way of misinterpreting the bible in order to scare or isolate others. that's wrong & it makes everyone who believes look bad.) In addition, sin was the consequence for adam & eve's choice to partake of the apple in the garden of eden. there choice caused the issues that are happening in the world. ultimately it is the devil's world we are in...now we have the choice to live above the influence and come back into God's graces. only the strong will survive. Part of me feels like God did this to weed out the people who are not worthy of having everlasting life. Just like an exclusive club, there has to be a criteria...if everyone was allowed to join the club, it'd be called earth.

2nd: Personally, I have asked the lord in prayer for answers on numerous occasions. & i tell you this (you can believe it or not), he has answered. i know you can't understand this unless its happened to you, but honestly I have seen too many things not to believe in his power. when i am down n out, i pick up my bible or devotional, flip to a random page & right there in front of me is a passage that talks about the very thing I am going through. every time I have been within inches of hitting a brick wall, a door gets installed in that wall &i just walk right on through. that's not a coincidence if it happens more than twice. However, God does not help those who have not first helped themselves...so it may not be the case with everyone. God reveals himself in so many ways, all of those "coincidences" are not just happenings...they are his ways of saying "im still here". that's just my opinion. has he revealed himself physically? no, not since jesus walked the earth. he is a spirit, not a human being. 

3rd: this is another misconception about alot of christians. maybe you are right about some, but you're not right about me. I spend each day living for today. I seek fulfillment everyday, just like everyone else...but i know that that's not the only thing that counts. after I am fulfilled here on earth, then i may have the opportunity to be fulfilled in the afterlife...in a way better atmosphere than that of earth. Thinking ahead doesn't mean you're ignoring whats in front of you. i am in college now, enjoying my college experience but I came to college in order to find a better job in the future. same kind of concept.

that's the thing about faith, its 100% personal (&it's hard to prove b/c not everything is known). its not the same for everyone. &&you have to have faith to see what i see. our experiences are going to be different, not more or less meaningful...just different. 

& as for the video...what if he's wrong? he never answered the question. 



Actually, he did answer the question.  It's just that you weren't satisfied with the answer.  He was also quite cleverly turning her argument against her to prove a point: that it is not known either way, and therefore one cannot be so arrogant as to believe they are the ones that are right.  Dawkins admits that he is 99% Atheist, but he is open to the possibility of a god the same way he is open to the possibility of a unicorn existing...and you will find that many others such as Sam Harris and Stephen Hawking present their views in much the same way.

Much of what you have presented is not really evidence, but anecdotes about your experience.  It doesn't hold a lot of weight in the scientific world, not because it's not respected, but it can't be measured or reproduced.  Scientists want to know how things work.  People who believe just accept it at face value.  For some of us, that is not acceptable because it leads to irrational thinking.  We once believed the sun revolved around the earth, that it was acceptable to own slaves and stone women to death for adultery.  Secularists and people who went against the church were responsible for changing that. 

As for "Adam" and "Eve," again, this is a story that can't really be validated and for many historians, it holds no weight what so ever.  Biblical accounts are not reliable at all.  But the way in which religious people escape it is proving the bible is valid--by using the bible.  The problem is that the bible is so contradictory and it has inaccurately misrepresented history on so many occasions that it can't be considered anything more than a fictitious version of events.  The bible has TWO completely separate accounts of the resurrection.  The most important story for modern day Christians--and it can't even get that straight?  It says that Jews were slaves of Egyptians, forced to build the pyramids--this is completely false and very much contradictory to ancient Egyptian culture and society.  The Jews were no where near the Egyptian pyramid builders (who were VERY WELL treated).

okay, maybe i was looking for another answer about what he would do if he was wrong. not whether or not he thought he was wrong, cause that is obvious. he is arrogant enough to believe he is right though, so I don't understand the point he was proving. I think if he worded it differently it would have had more of an impact on me. 

& much of what i've presented are anecdotes b/c thats what having faith is... ("confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a belief that is not based on proof.") its a personal story or journey in belief. it can't really be explained unless you know exactly how it felt to see, be or hear what i have seen, where i have been or what i have heard. i believe i said that in the previous post. i don't expect you to understand it, just want you to know that there are people out there who have experienced things that you can never understand unless you have been there...doesn't mean its not true cause you've never experienced it. 

i have a love for science & understand that some people need to be able to touch, see, taste, hear and feel things to know that they are there, but for all you know, the things that are in the science books you are reading (not all of course) could be falsified the same way you say the bible is a false history. I am sure you have not reproduced or measured everything you have read about in the field of science...but you believe it b/c someone said that they have evidence. science is also not always correct, but constantly edited so nothing is really set in stone there either. i don't have anything against science at all. I have many family members who are scientists for NIH but remain true to their faith. the two don't always have to at ends with each other.

recently, scientists have reason to believe that man kind as we know it today can be traced back to two individuals in africa. one male, scientific adam, and one female, mitochondrial eve. sounds kind of like the story of adam and eve to me... a story that very well might be proven to be true eventually. the bible has been translated so many times, that dates, names and words may have been misinterpreted (hence the contradictions and historical inaccuracies), but the point of the stories have remained. so what if science was to validate the story? then what? (this is a rhetorical question.)

at the end of the day, believer or not, some or all of what we each believe may be wrong. we can defend our sides all day but I know better than to hold my breath. 


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csungrl09 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 12:23am
Originally posted by SpoiledSpicy SpoiledSpicy wrote:


EXCELLENT POST.


you know what this means right? 
you have officially crossed over & have opened yourself up to be attacked too. 
be prepared LOL
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NewFreedom11 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 12:52am
All she said was that she liked the dialogue. That's nothing to be "attacked" about. YOU on the other hand...
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