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Doc Holiday 
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 28 2009
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Points: 2639
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 Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 9:56pm |
 noneyons wrote:
in other words, how can you question the logical consistency without believing in god or satan. consistancy requires a foundation. |
Again, you can hypothetically take a position for the sake of argument, as you have admitted to doing yourself.
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Doc Holiday
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 28 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2639
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:00pm |
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Apologies for the multiple posts, I'm on mobile.
Edited by Doc Holiday - Oct 04 2013 at 10:01pm
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noneyons
Elite Member
Joined: Oct 04 2009
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Points: 87159
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:01pm |
meaning you believe the torah is more logical than the new testament? can't say i disagree but could you expound on that?
based on torah law alone, i can not completely discount the plausibility of god's existence but this is only scratching the surface.
as far as the two deities competing for human souls, the god of abraham, isaac, and jacob nem' was clearly a jealous and vengeful god. isn't that god persona consistent with the sad state of the world? could it be that god is everything described in the old testament and satan is only his advesary and not necessarily the bad guy?\
how far down the rabbit hole we going here?
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Doc Holiday
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 28 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2639
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:16pm |
noneyons wrote:
meaning you believe the torah is more logical than the new testament? can't say i disagree but could you expound on that? |
In this instance? Yes. Yahweh of the Hebrew Bible was a god of justice rather than mercy, and acknowledged that he was the cause of both positive and negative phenomena. Things get murky in Judaism when the introduce the Zoroastrian themes of good vs evil and a reward/punishment based afterlife. Christianity and Islam picked up those themes and ran with them.
noneyons wrote:
based on torah law alone, i can not completely discount the plausibility of god's existence but this is only scratching the surface. |
I never said that you could.
noneyons wrote:
as far as the two deities competing for human souls, the god of abraham, isaac, and jacob nem' was clearly a jealous and vengeful god. isn't that god persona consistent with the sad state of the world? could it be that god is everything described in the old testament and satan is only his advesary and not necessarily the bad guy?\ |
You could, but it would take some impressive reaching. For one, the "state of the world" differs from individual to individual. Furthermore, is Yahweh blessing individual at random? He was certainly harsh in the Torah, but there was usually always some reason behind it.
noneyons wrote:
how far down the rabbit hole we going here? |
As far as you like.
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noneyons
Elite Member
Joined: Oct 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 87159
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:19pm |
| You could, but it would take some impressive reaching. For one, the "state of the world" differs from individual to individual. Furthermore, is Yahweh blessing individual at random? He was certainly harsh in the Torah, but there was usually always some reason behind it. |
i like this. let me sip a little more and i'll be back with response.
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noneyons
Elite Member
Joined: Oct 04 2009
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Points: 87159
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:21pm |
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i will say this though. the bolded is reason enough for me to entertain the possibility of reincarnation and tie the two (reincarnation and salvation by way of the resurrection) together. ion know how deep i wanna go tonight. give me a minute to decide lol
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Doc Holiday
Senior Member
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Points: 2639
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:26pm |
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It bears mentioning that Pre-Talmudic Judaism (my hypothetical faith) didn't concern itself with salvation or resurrection, but I am interested in reading how you would reconcile the two with reincarnation (an Eastern concept).
Edited by Doc Holiday - Oct 04 2013 at 10:27pm
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noneyons
Elite Member
Joined: Oct 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 87159
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:38pm |
i done tapped out and haven't contemplated this theory in a while so bear with me. i'm a little rusty so give me a sec. brb
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Doc Holiday
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 28 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2639
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:53pm |
noneyons wrote:
i done tapped out and haven't contemplated this theory in a while so bear with me. i'm a little rusty so give me a sec. brb
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Take your time. It's not like there some sort of due date for any of this. I'm pretty sure that I'll be calling it quits in a moment my self. I need to let Hyde out and relieve some of my inhibitions. 
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noneyons
Elite Member
Joined: Oct 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 87159
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Posted: Oct 04 2013 at 10:56pm |
- imagine the creation of the universe was that of a singular power/entity (and not from two origin-less states of matter smushing together/manifesting into the space time continuum of what we call life).
-imagine the opening lines of the book of genesis ( "in the beginning god created the heavens and earth and the earth was formless and void blah blah blah) was not describing the initial creation of the earth but the RESTORATION of the earth. (you'd need a concordance to break down the actual meaning of many of the words. for example, "was" can be translated to mean "became")
-so god restored the earth AFTER it became void and without life. after the war of the angels.
-elohim said let's make man in our image. Who is "our"? Imagine our are the people who came before adam and eve and become like god (like enoch of the old testament)
-imagine god's plan is for man to become like him (like enoch or jesus/yeshua).
-satan was in charge of helping man achieving god consciousnes but defied god's plan out of jealousy.
i'm losing interest but imagine god's original plan was for man to achieve god consciousness by way of reincarnation (evolution?) but there since there is an adversary who is actively trying to block god's plan, god sent a messiah that would allow mankind to reach that state of consciousness by way of salvation.
i don't know how deep i want to go because to do so would require me to dig up the bible, a strong concordance and all that jazz and i'm too tipsy for that...but that's basically where i'm coming from.
Edited by noneyons - Oct 04 2013 at 10:58pm
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