Print Page | Close Window

Does long term use of silicones cause balding?

Printed From: Black Hair Media Forum
Category: Natural Hair Care
Forum Name: Natural Hair Care
Forum Description: General Discussions on Natural Hair Care
URL: http://Forum.BlackHairMedia.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=369306
Printed Date: Nov 19 2017 at 12:09pm


Topic: Does long term use of silicones cause balding?
Posted By: DEE80
Subject: Does long term use of silicones cause balding?
Date Posted: Mar 19 2014 at 2:01pm
I haven't posted in here in a long time, but I had a question or comment. Smile I was looking at a video on YT where a woman showed her hair after she had went natural. I don't know how long she's been natural, but she had some bald spots. She said it was from using silicones. I have co-washing religiously for almost 3 weeks on a daily basis. I use either Herbal Essence Hello Hydration and Curl Junkie Daily Fix. I got so scared that I started to just using Curl Junkie. I do wash my hair weekly with a sulfate-free 'poo. Should I just stick with a silicone free conditioner or keep using what works?



Replies:
Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 19 2014 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by DEE80 DEE80 wrote:

I haven't posted in here in a long time, but I had a question or comment. Smile I was looking at a video on YT where a woman showed her hair after she had went natural. I don't know how long she's been natural, but she had some bald spots. She said it was from using silicones. I have co-washing religiously for almost 3 weeks on a daily basis. I use either Herbal Essence Hello Hydration and Curl Junkie Daily Fix. I got so scared that I started to just using Curl Junkie. I do wash my hair weekly with a sulfate-free 'poo. Should I just stick with a silicone free conditioner or keep using what works?


It's definitely possible to get bald spots from silicones. People can be silicone sensitive the same way you can be protein sensitive. This isn't the case with everyone, some people just have fragiler hair than others depending on their hair type (porosity thickness curl pattern)

It's possible the woman was using silicone conditioners and maybe not using sulfate shampoo often enough or at all (which are the only things that can remove silicones) so it allowed the silicone to build up on her hair, and with her sensitivity, her hair reacted badly to it. This isn't the first time I've heard ppl complaining of this, either. Maybe you think its working for you know, but if your hair feels rough and like straw like when its dry and without product, that should be a telltale sign its building up

When you use silicones, they form a plastic barrier on the hair blocking proper moisture absorption especially depending on your hair's porosity. This is why relaxed hair seems to like silicone and proteins, because the cuticles have been permanently damaged and very high porousand weak, they want those fillers.

This is why you pretty much need to use sulfate shampoos if you want the silicone residue to get off your hair. Even if you don't necessarily get bald spots, although if u let it build up overtime it can cause brittleness and dryness that leads to breakage, the build up from the silicones can make it more difficult for you hair to absorb moisture. So your hair may feel soft when wet, but frizzy and dehydrated when dry since most of the moisture that could be absorbed, evaporates before that can happen due to the silicones in the way.

 Unfortunately sulfates are extremely drying on the hair, and strip moisture. Even if you used them, you'd be bouncing back and forth between blocking moisture from your hair shaft, and stripping moisture from it, perpetuating chronically dehydrated hair. so If you are going to stick with the sulfate free shampoo, you have to do it more often to keep up with the amount of silicone build up. 

I personally would avoid silicones all together. Silicone build up stays on the hair even after you wash the conditioner out, so to me it's like perpetuating build up and getting in the way of what could be increasing your moisture retention levels.

You may want to read into this method to see if it appeals to you as well.

http://forum.blackhairmedia.com/the-max-hydration-methodfrom-my-other-post_topic368937_page1.html




Posted By: rell85
Date Posted: Mar 19 2014 at 10:05pm
No and does she know cause of her hair loss could be a number of things like who told her it was from silicons. I wouldn't base my hair regimen off of a video. Listen to your own hair.


Posted By: NARSAddict
Date Posted: Mar 20 2014 at 12:15am
In my case that would be negatory. I have been using silicones for half of my life and I am not bald.  I will admit that my hair is not as thick as it was but I am in school, working and older.


Posted By: DEE80
Date Posted: Mar 20 2014 at 12:43pm
Thanks ladies for your comments. Smile She probably didn't wash her hair with shampoo on a regular basis. She probably just co-wash and that's it. I'll take my chance and use sulfate-free conditioner from now on.


Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 9:01am
No that is all balogna & cowashing only is fine. I see no point in ever stripping the treatment off of the strands since I will only put some more right back on the hair the instant I finish rinsing out the cleanser. LOL  Silicone is one the BEST emollients for hair and skin known to man. Silicones are oily, emollient substances. Here is a definition of an emollient to tell you what silicone does.
emollient (ɪˈmɒlɪənt)
Definition: Emollients are key ingredients in moisturizers and cleansers. They are chemicals that remain in the  http://dermatology.about.com/od/anatomy/ss/sc_anatomy.htm" rel="nofollow - stratum corneum to act as lubricants. They help maintain the soft, smooth, and pliable appearance of the skin. Emollients are often thought of as "filling in the crevices" between  http://dermatology.about.com/od/anatomy/ss/sc_anatomy_2.htm" rel="nofollow - corneocytes  that are in the process of  http://dermatology.about.com/od/anatomy/ss/sc_anatomy_9.htm" rel="nofollow - desquamation  (shedding). The emollient used in a moisturizer plays a key role in its "skin slip," the smooth feeling imparted to the skin after application.
http://dermatology.about.com/od/glossarye/g/emollient.htm

If silicones or oils prevented all moisture absorption, hair that was flat ironed with silicone would never revert when you cleanse it. Hair DOES revert when you cleanse it even if you use silicones or oils for years and never use sulfates to cleanse it.  Now silicones and oils DO help to slow down the reverting and puffiness when you go out in humidity but they do not block out all water or moisture. Hair can get wet and it does revert with silicones or oils on it. As a matter of fact, the converse is true. When you put silicone conditioner over wet hair it works like the L-O-C formula, sealing the moisture INSIDE the hair strands. Hair dryness is more an issue of lack of lipids or natural fatty, moist substances in the strand.  This is addressed in one of the articles below. So water or hydration alone is not going to make your hair feel less dry. In fact as the hair dries from water alone, it will take with it a lot of natural oils also evaporating from the strand leaving the hair DRYER. So in order to fix dryness, you need to add emulsions of water with oils to the strand that can replicate natural lipids...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gkDoMNz8RQ Water alone is not enough. Furthermore, adding drying agents like vinegar and baking soda will eat out even more of the few lipids (fats) the strands have and leave the hair dryer. It may feel softer when it is wet because you have dissolved some of the keratin similar to the way a relaxer dissolves some of the keratin and cuticle. This is why some naturals notice a smoother curl pattern after baking soda.They've swollen the strands as much as a relaxer with the baking soda which causes destruction of some of the disulfide bonds that form kinks and curl patterns. This is the same thing that relaxers do to the hair, swell the strand and cause the disulfide curl bonds to break.. (You've essentially eroded  some of the strand off and zapped out its natural oils. That is why it will feel dryer when it dries after zapping the hair with corrosive vinegar and baking soda. . Silicone is not what you need to be worried about. It is an oily emollient. It is not a corrosive like these other drying things people are trying experiments with these days.

I see this same bull crap with vegans and vegetarians. They spread fear telling people they will drop dead on the spot if they eat a drop of meat. (I am vegetarian/vegan some times myself but the medical statistics do not substantiate what they are saying any more than the scientific data supports what the cult followers are saying about silicone) This is like a cult of fanatics spreading this none sense.  You can not reason with them. Silicone has been a main ingredient in hair products for over 50 years and people are not going  bald.  

If you do not want to use it then don't. It is a great product for those who want to seal in moisture and condition the hair. Silicone is especially great for those with puffy hair who need a little weight to their locks to keep from puffing up. Silicone may be too heavy for some with baby fine Caucasian hair just as oils may be too heavy for the same hair types. African Americans can benefit from silicones just as we benefit from oils. ignore the cult fanatics who spread this bull crap.

Here is what the real scientists say about this. Ignore the pseudo scientists who do not have any degrees and are not even cosmetologists. The only degree the folk have who spread these lies about silicones is  doctorate degrees  in spreading bull crap, lies and fallacies. 

http://thebeautybrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/photo.jpg" rel="nofollow">photo http://chemistscorner.com/perry-romanowski/" rel="nofollow - Perry Romanowski  is a writer, cosmetic chemist, Inventor, scientist, instructor, futurologist, and thought leader. He’s also the founder of  http://chemistscorner.com/" rel="nofollow - Chemists Corner  blog and training program.

 

 

http://thebeautybrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/161182_562912629_999072224_n1.jpg" rel="nofollow">161182_562912629_999072224_n Randy Schueller is a writer, former Sr. Director of Hair and Skin Care R&D for Alberto Culver and Unilever and a member of the National Association of Science Writers.

 

Will silicones dry out hair?

by  on MAY 2, 2010

Summer says about silicones… I am an esthetician and an absolute ingredient crazy beauty product junkie. My question for you is whether or not silicone in any of its forms is drying and therefore damaging to the hair. My hair stylist told me that it dries hair out, resulting in the breakage I have always experienced. As a curly haired woman living in humidity, silicones have saved me from much unnecessary frizz. Please clarify what effect silicones have on hair, and also skin if you could, as I was taught that they formed a protective layer over the skin holding in the skin’s natural moisture (as well as imparting a silky feel to the surface).

The Right Brain’s silky smooth reply:

Good for your Summer! You’re not blindly following the advice of your hair stylist!

Savvy about silicone

The truth is, silicone (the molecule pictured above) is one of the MOST effective ingredients for conditioning hair or skin. In both cases it serves as a protective barrier. In fact, in skin lotions dimethicone (a form of silicone) is so good it’s approved as an over the counter drug ingredient.

In hair care products you’ll see a mixture of dimethicone and cyclomethicone typically used. Again, dimethicone is heavier and coats the hair; cyclomethicone is very thin and helps to spread the dimethicone, it also evaporates so it’s good for use in lightweight products like leave in conditioners or volumizing products.

The Beauty Brains bottom line

Silicones are good moisturizers for hair and skin and are commonly used in many, many products. We’ve never seen any data that shows they dry out or damage hair.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2010/05/02/will-silicones-dry-out-hair/


Second post

Will Silicone Build Up on My Hair?

by  on JANUARY 27, 2010

Celeste asks…I have found out from this site that all I hear about silicone is not true. So what else is not true? Do I have to cleanse the silicone from my hair, or will it wear off? Can I use an Aubrey or some such shampoo or cowash?

The Left Brain responds:

Silicone is a much maligned ingredient; I’m really not sure what it’s done to deserve this reputation.

Wear off or wash off?

Whether or not a silicone will “wear off” depends on what type of silicone you’re talking about. Dimethicone needs to be washed off. Cyclomethicone will evaporate off your hair just like water evaporates. Generally, any shampoo will wash away the silicone left on your hair from styling treatments and conditioners.

Is Aubrey acceptable?

Any shampoo will wash away the silicone. Cowash will not be enough and the silicone may start to build up and weigh down your hair.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2010/01/27/will-silicone-build-up-on-my-hair/

(weighing down is more a problem amongst Caucasians than African Americans who may welcome elongation time)

Does silicone suffocate hair?

by  on FEBRUARY 16, 2007

Carly’s Question:

There has been a lot of controversy lately about silicones in hair products. I am a member of a naturally curly hair website and many of the members are anti-silicone because of the claims that silicones bond to the hair and do not allow moisture into the hair shaft. Supposedly once the silicone is on the hair it acts as a barrier between your hair shaft and any moisture. Is all of this true, or is it just a myth? I will sometimes use a silicone product, but then later feel guilty that I am suffocating my hair, and wash it all off. I think it would be great if you can let everyone know the truth behind silicones.

The  http://thebeautybrains.com/" rel="nofollow - Right Brain’s  Response:

Questions about  http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/29/are-silicones-bad-for-your-hair/" rel="nofollow - silicones being bad for your hair  come up a lot. But you can just call us the cosmetic mythbusters, Carly, because silicones do not really cause the problem you described. Shampoos and conditioners that contain a high level of high molecular weight, water insoluble silicones can build up on hair, that much is true. And if you over-use products like this everyday, it is possible to end up with hair that feels weighed down and limp. But even this does happen, you’re not really suffocating your hair.

3 Reasons Why Silicone Can’t Suffocate Hair:

1) Even if you didn’t wash all the silicone out, we’ve never seen any data that indicates that a small amount of silicone residue acts as a “barrier” between hair shaft and moisture. On average, your hair contains about 8 to 14% water by weight but it will equilibrate to the ambient humidity. In other words, it will pick up moisture when it’s very humid and it will lose moisture when it’s very dry. Slight silicone residue won’t substantially change that. Now, if you slather on a heavy layer of a silicone hair treatment product, that’s a different story!

2) Even though your hair absorbs moisture from the environment, its state of dryness isn’t completely controlled by this external water. Dryness is more a function of how damaged your hair is and how much natural lipids it contains.

3) Even if you did block your hair from absorbing moisture, the silicone would act like a moisturizing agent because it would plasticize and lubricate your hair. It would essentially fight the effects of dryness.

The Beauty Brains Bottom Line:

If you use a silicone containing product and you like the way it makes your hair look and feel, DONT WORRY ABOUT IT! Don’t feel guilty because some people tell you that it’s bad for your hair. Oil products like  http://thebeautybrains.com/2006/05/24/is-ojon-restorative-treatment-any-good/" rel="nofollow - Ojon  can work too if you don’t want to use silicone.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/02/16/does-silicone-suffocate-hair/

Are silicones bad for your hair?

by  on JANUARY 29, 2007

Diane’s Undaunted By Silicones For Silkier Hair:

The question of silicone’s usefulness has long being a subject of intense debate, speculation and confusion in Long Hair Community. As a consequence, a lot of members in Long Hair Community are wary of using silicone-heavy products, such as Pantene conditioner. Dimethicone, Cyclomethicone and whatnot are allegedly harder to rinse out, therefore build-up occurs faster than a silicone-free hair regimen.

As for me, I love how cones smooth and soften my hair big time – while in shower. Sadly, the miraculous silkiness vanishes as soon as my hair dries. So I use unrefined coconut oil to successfully add shine, softness and protection for my hair.

My questions are these: Are cones really harder to rinse out? How do they work on hair? Do they dry hair out? And why does that wonderful silkiness disappear when my hair dries? How do carrier oils like coconut oil, sweet almond oil compare to silicones?

The Right Brain Comments on ‘Cones for Conditioning:

Diane, you raise some very good questions. In general, silicones work by covering hair with a thin hydrophobic (water-proof) coating. This coating serves several purposes: it helps reduce the porosity of the hair which makes it less likely to absorb humidity; it helps reduce moisture loss from the inside of the hair; and it lubricates the surface of the hair so it feel smoother and combs easier.

The properties vary depending on which particular silicone is in the formula. Some silicones do leave a heavy coating on the hair that can be hard to wash off. Others are very water soluble and don’t buildup at all. Dimethicone, (sometimes called simethicone) for example, is the heaviest of all silicones used for hair care. It provides the most smoothing effect but it is also the hardest to wash out. Cyclomethicone on the other hand, gives great slippery feeling while you’re rinsing your hair, but it quickly evaporates leaving nothing behind. This is probably what you`re experiencing.

What about carrier oils, as you describe them? Some oils are effective conditioners. Take coconut oil, for example. While it doesn`t provide the same surface smoothing as silicones, it has been shown to penetrate hair and plasticize the cortex, making hair stronger. (This isn’t true of all natural oils however.) So oils are useful ingredients but they’re not direct replacements for silicones.

The  http://thebeautybrains.com/" rel="nofollow - Brains  Bottom Line:

It`s tough to tell simply from reading the label because there are so many types of silicones and they can be used in combination with each other. You can’t simply say: all silicones are bad. Some women will find silicones too heavy for their hair, others will love the soft, conditioned feel they provide. You’ll have to experiment to find what’s right for you. Good luck!

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/29/are-silicones-bad-for-your-hair/

What do silicones do for your hair?

by  on JANUARY 23, 2007

One of our favorite resources,  http://www.longhaircommunity.com/index.php" rel="nofollow - The Long Hair Community , has posted an excellent  http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=53479" rel="nofollow - list of silicones used in hair care products . There are a couple of technical inaccuracies here and there, but overall this is a very comprehensive list of what you’ll see on the ingredient lists of the products you buy. It’s a bit long, but we thought we’d reprint it here in it’s entirety for your reference. And it took a lot of time to compile this, so a BIG THANKS to the ladies at the Long Hair Community – it’s one of the best non toxic beauty blogs we’ve ever seen!

Silicone Ingredients Used In Hair Care Products

Amodimethicone- Trimethylsilylamodimethicone- A non-curable amine silicone fluid for hair care products and decorative cosmetics. Provides water resistance.

Amodimethicone (&) C11-15 Pareth-7 (&) Laureth-9 (&) Glycerin (&) Trideceth-12-

An amine functional micro-emulsion for clear, aqueous-based hair products.

Amodimethicone (&) Trideceth-12 (&) Cetrimonium Chloride- Cationic emulsion for hair conditioning.

Bisamino PEG/PPG-41/3 Aminoethyl PG-Propyl Dimethicone- Provides excellent hair conditioning without build-up. Ideal for use in products designed to treat colour, perm, sun and heat-damaged hair.

Bis-Phenylpropyl Dimethicone- A colourless silicone fluid with high RI, low viscosity and volatility, shine enhancement and luxurious feel.

C30-45 Alkyl Dimethicone- Superior compatibility with both silicones and organics. Can be used as a thickening agent which gives a unique silky skin feel.

Cetearyl Methicone- A soft, waxy material; excellent lubricity and spreadability.

Cetyl Dimethicone- Occlusive film forming for skin conditioners.

Cetyl PEG/PPG-15/15 Butyl Ether Dimethicone- A silicone emulsifier for use in the preparation of water-in-oil emulsions. Also offers good emulsification of paraffin oils and vegetable triglycerides.

Cyclomethicone (&) PEG/PPG-20/15 Dimethicone- For formulating water-in-oil emulsions, particularly water-in-silicone emulsions. Excellent aesthetics.

Cyclopentasiloxane- Cyclomethicone D5- Provides improved efficacy in antiperspirants and wet combing in hair conditioners.

Cyclopentasiloxane (&) C30-45 Alkyl Cetearyl Dimethicone Crosspolymer- Provides a unique feeling during rub-in followed by a soft powdery feel for an extended period. Ideal for cream to powder formulations.

Cyclopentasiloxane (&) Cyclohexasiloxane- Available in three different proportions offering low viscosity, a relatively high volatility and a cyclic structure.

Cyclopentasiloxane (&) Dimethicone- The basis for hair serums. Conditioning without build up.

Cyclopentasiloxane (&) Dimethicone/Vinyldimethicone Crosspolymer- An elastomer dispersion resulting in a smooth, highly viscous gel with a unique silky feel on application.

Cyclopentasiloxane (&) Dimethiconol- Provides a smooth, velvety feel without greasiness. Useful for skincare and hair conditioning.

Cyclopentasiloxane (&) Trimethylsiloxysilicate- Silicone resin blended with Cyclopentasiloxane. Provides water resistance.

Cyclotetrasiloxane- Cyclomethicone D4- A volatile silicone for improving skin feel in applications such as anti-perspirants.

DEA PG-Propyl PEG/PPG-18/21 Dimethicone- Enhances the performance of shampoos and conditioners with improved gloss, manageability and moisturizing properties.

Diisostearoyl Trimethylolpropane Siloxy Silicate- Highly substantive to skin, has good lubricity and spreadability. Compatible with organic oils and waxes.

Dimethicone Copolyol

Dimethicone (&) Laureth-4 (&) Laureth-23- Non-ionic silicone emulsion for 2-in-1 shampoos.

Dimethicone (&) Trimethylsiloxysilicate- Water resistant, non-tacky film, ideal for sun screens.

Dimethicone (from 1 to 1,000,000 cs)- The original silicone ‘oil’. A complete range is available from the highly mobile 1-20 cs, the popular 50-500 cs and the heavier 1,000-1,000,000 cs.

Dimethiconol (&) Sodium Dodecylbenzenesulphonate- An anionic emulsion for leave-in hair products. Disperses well in aqueous preparations and gives the hair good texture.

Diphenyl Dimethicone- A heat-resistant silicone with good film-forming properties. Used as a skin conditioning and anti foaming agent.

Disiloxane- Volatile replacement for ethanol in APs and aerosols.

Lauryl Methicone Copolyol

PCA Dimethicone- Functional over a broad pH range and offers excellent smoothing, conditioning and emolliency properties in many different applications.

PEG/PPG-20/15 Dimethicone- Previously referred to as Dimethicone Copolyol. A very versatile, water soluble polyether modified silicone for use in skin and hair products.

PEG-12 Dimethicone- Previously referred to as Dimethicone Copolyol. A very versatile, water soluble polyether modified silicone for use in skin and hair products.

Phenyl Trimethicone- A very popular high gloss silicone for spray-on hair products. Also provides emolliency and water repellency in skin care products.

Polysilicone-18 Cetyl Phosphate- Color-retaining conditioner for hair products. Also offers thermal protection and a slick, soft after-feel. Excellent solubility and compatibility with most surfactants.

Silicone Resin Spheres (2, 5 & 6 micron)- Fine, white spherical particles give slip and lubricity in pressed and loose powders.

Simethicone- A mixture of Dimethicone and hydrated silica, used as an antifoaming agent. Available in two grades.

Stearoxy Dimethicone

Stearyl Dimethicone

Trimethylsiloxysilicate- A solid silicone resin for decorative cosmetics. Provides water resistance.

Trisiloxane- Anti foaming and skin conditioning agent.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/23/what-do-silicones-do-for-your-hair/


Bottom line, silicones are excellent emollients, they just may be too heavy for some people's hair. Others will love them. It is whatever works for you. 

Who are the Beauty Brains?

The Beauty Brains were founded by Perry Romanowski and Randy Schueller, two cosmetic scientists with over 50 combined years of experience in formulating and testing beauty products.

http://thebeautybrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/photo.jpg" rel="nofollow">photo http://chemistscorner.com/perry-romanowski/" rel="nofollow - Perry Romanowski  is a writer, cosmetic chemist, Inventor, scientist, instructor, futurologist, and thought leader. He’s also the founder of  http://chemistscorner.com/" rel="nofollow - Chemists Corner  blog and training program.

 

 

http://thebeautybrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/161182_562912629_999072224_n1.jpg" rel="nofollow">161182_562912629_999072224_n Randy Schueller is a writer, former Sr. Director of Hair and Skin Care R&D for Alberto Culver and Unilever and a member of the National Association of Science Writers.

 



Posted By: OhMyCurlz
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 5:35pm
THANK YOU FOR THAT!!!

I wish that could be posted on every natural hair board in the world so this whole "silicones is the debil" mess can go away for good! 




Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:30pm
If your hair is naturally low in porosity, what could be beneficial effect of silicones can do more harm than good.

http://mycurlymane.com/author/admin/

"Low Porosity

If your hair has low porosity, it will have trouble opening up due to its overly compact cuticle layer. With this firm barrier, your hair will have difficulty absorbing moisture/water and allowing it to escape. As a result, hair will take longer to absorb products, leaving it dry. It will also be susceptible to product build up.

Needs: A lot of moisture. To open up the cuticle, try steamers, hot oil treatments, and products that are a little more alkaline/have a higher pH level. Add moisture to your hair while it’s damp, before the cuticle layer closes up again.

Need to avoid: Products and techniques that further seal the cuticle, including protein treatments, silicones, and mineral oil."


Your hello hydration conditioner has cones in it that are not water soluable, and are prone to build up on the hair.

Ingredients to Hello Hydration Conditioner:
Water , Stearyl Alcohol , Behentrimonium Chloride , Cetyl Alcohol , Bis Aminopropyl Dimethicone , Zea Mays (Corn) Silk Extract , Orchis Mascula Flower Extract , Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Fruit Extract , Fragrance , Benzyl Alcohol , Disodium EDTA , Sodium Hydroxide , Methylchloroisothiazolinone , Methylisothiazolinone , Blue 1


http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-amodimethicone-and-other-amine-functionalized-silicones

"These modified silicones (The silicone I bolded is modified) seem to be of particular benefit for those of us with damaged hair, permanently colored hair or those concerned about the buildup of conditioning agents. It would be necessary to use a shampoo containing one of the lauryl or laureth sulfates or cocamidopropyl betaine to completely remove this silicone from the hair, which may be of concern to those who prefer to use only conditioner-cleansing methods."


Lady Aradia's own quote from credible source, that is exactly in line with what I am saying:

"Diane, you raise some very good questions. In general, silicones work by covering hair with a thin hydrophobic (water-proof) coating. This coating serves several purposes: it helps reduce the porosity of the hair which makes it less likely to absorb humidity; it helps reduce moisture loss from the inside of the hair; and it lubricates the surface of the hair so it feel smoother and combs easier."

If your hair is low or even normal porosity, you definetly are more prone to it building up, especially if your hair is low poros. It is a permeable barrier, but it still does block a significant amount moisture, which can have a substantial effect on low poros hair. The level of sensitivity to this build up depends on your own hair. SLS containing shampoo is the ideal for good removal. However, other milder sulphate free surfactants can slow silicone build up.

Higher porosity hair will benefit from their cuticles being blocked since they lose moisture more easily. The type of cleanser that can remove these type of cones are SLS. Most conditioners contain the non water soluable cones anyway, so its important to look at the ingredients and research them.

 Although being water soluable sometimes doesnt make a difference if you have a specific sensitivity, since it is then absorbed into the hair forming bonds similar to a protein. Not everyones hair responds well to that, and if you have low porosity, your hair is more prone to either immediately drying out from it, or drying out from frequent and continued use over time.

Proteins are water soluable and work similarly to water soluable silicones, some people's hair still react adversely to proteins, by becoming drier and prone to breakage. If fact, many water soluable proteins are amino based, so if you are protein sensitive, your hair may not respond well to those either. Some oils like coconut oil have the same effect, even though it absorbs into the hair.

There are people who don't have this problem but there are many who do so its relevant to mention it. In the end it all comes down to your hair's porosity, type, and your other individual hair quirks to tell you whether or not you will benefit from it. The main thing is to not allow silicones to build up on your hair, if you fit that category. Unless you have higher porosity, damaged or chemically treated hair (including dye) the build up can really cause more problems than they are worth, and the type of conditioner you are using does really contain silicones that cant be easily removed with out the use of sulfates.

There are plenty of conditioners that provide slip and do not contain silicones. Silicones are not the sole sorce of slip in conditioners, hence why many silicone free conditioners provide great slip. Kinky curly knot today is one example. Silicones are really more beneficial for people with higher porosity, straight, chemically treated, or damaged hair. But for low poros hair and even in some cases normal poros hair, it isnt necessary and can eventually lead to dry brittle hair. This is the reality and experience for many people and its important to acknowledge both sides of the spectrum and figure out what your hair can take, and how your hair feels after longterm use.  If the cuticle isnt damaged and has the ability to close on its own its enough to use a low ph product, or doing an acv rinse. That will have the smoothing, defrizzing, softening effect without build up.


Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 12:31am
You say this as a scientist, a cosmetologist or as one of those other type of "experts" I mentioned above?  I love how people with NO QUALIFICATIONS whatsoever speak with such authority.

I am a cosmetologist. We used silicone containing conditioners on all clients for decades at many salons and no one's hair was damaged. Quite the contrary. As I said, you can not reason with fearmongerers. They fabricate tales of doom and gloom based on non proven hypothesis and spread them with great authority based on  NO STUDIES, NO STATISTICS, NO QUALIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER,just based on SPECULATION.

You are disputing me, a cosmetologist with decades of experience in the field and you are disputing the scientists quoted above who have tested hair products for 50 years between them .LOL
Anyways, the only ones really qualified to speak on this have stated:
"The Beauty Brains bottom line

Silicones are good moisturizers for hair and skin and are commonly used in many, many products. We’ve never seen any data that shows they dry out or damage hair.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2010/05/02/will-silicones-dry-out-hair/"


They are actually scientists with degrees.  You are a spreading pseudo "science" based on nothing except your own inflated ego.



Posted By: sexyandfamous
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 1:55am
Thanks for all the info, Lady Aradia
And to the OP, just pay attention to how your hair reacts to silicones. If there is no buildup, if your hair is not suffering in any way, continue to use it.

I haven't use silicones in my hair in a long time, but I am considering giving a try to see if it is better to remain cone-free or not.


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 11:44am
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

You say this as a scientist, a cosmetologist or as one of those other type of "experts" I mentioned above?  I love how people with NO QUALIFICATIONS whatsoever speak with such authority.

I am a cosmetologist. We used silicone containing conditioners on all clients for decades at many salons and no one's hair was damaged. Quite the contrary. As I said, you can not reason with fearmongerers. They fabricate tales of doom and gloom based on non proven hypothesis and spread them with great authority based on  NO STUDIES, NO STATISTICS, NO QUALIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER,just based on SPECULATION.

You are disputing me, a cosmetologist with decades of experience in the field and you are disputing the scientists quoted above who have tested hair products for 50 years between them .LOL
Anyways, the only ones really qualified to speak on this have stated:
"The Beauty Brains bottom line

Silicones are good moisturizers for hair and skin and are commonly used in many, many products. We’ve never seen any data that shows they dry out or damage hair.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2010/05/02/will-silicones-dry-out-hair/"


They are actually scientists with degrees.  You are a spreading pseudo "science" based on nothing except your own inflated ego.



If you read what I wrote it doesn't dispute many of the quotes you made. In fact have of those quotes can be used to defend what i am saying. You are acting like i am directly disputing all the studies, but everything I'm saying is in line with them, I am elaborating on them with additional reasonable evidence.

You even said earlier, try it out and do what's best for your hair. Many find silicones to build up on their hair. It isn't arrogant to notice this and put to and two together since it makes logical sense. Hair does not behave randomly. If your hair behaves a certain way, there is a reason for it.  It isn't arrogant to encourage someone to look at their ingredients and research them, and to take into account their hair's porosity and type. You may say all cones can't be bad, but all cones aren't necessarily good either. Whether they are actively bad depends directly on your hair type, most importantly, porosity but other factors like thickness, curl texture, and curl size are also relevant.
 
"While there are two categories of silicones, one type is not better than the other because silicones do not actually benefit the hair in any way.   In fact, silicones only give the “appearance” of healthier hair.   Silicones coat the hair to make it appear sleeker, frizz free and healthier. "
http://blackhairmedia.com/hair-care/silicones-in-hair-products-good-or-bad/

And depending on your hair type, they can be bad.
Even the quote says it's
up to you to experiment and find what is best for your hair. It isn't fear mongering, the information is there and needs to be addressed so that people who do not understand why these products don't work for them, have actual reasoning as to why.

 This helps people identify and fix mistakes they are making in their regimen, and further increase their hair's health and manageability. I find it childish to just graze over all the points I made and call it fear mongering. If anything you are trying to monger fear of using bakingsoda and acv using false facts that don't apply to what I am saying. Where as every thing I have said is actually true and has logical reasoning behind it that I can back up and will back up below.

What i am doing is explaining that if silicones do not work for you, this is the reason why. If silicones do work for you, this is the reason why. How is that fear mongering? Low porosity hair is more inclined to dry out from protein in products. Dryness causes brittle hair. Is that fear mongering? To point out the obvious from my experience? From many other people's experience? From scientific evidence that support my claims? I'm not qualified to talk about what I've experienced and observed and spent time to research on an open forum?

What you are doing is ignoring evidence that shows silicones do build up on the hair, viewing silicones as some kind of holy grail, and if someone has a problem with silicones it's all boloney. Their experience is baloney because since you haven't experienced it it doesn't exist. How arrogant of you. What exactly did I say that came off as fear mongering? We are basically saying the same thing on one level, find out whats right for you. The only difference is, you are saying that if a product doesn't work, it's the luck of the draw, I am saying it isn't random and the reason why has a lot to do with porosity, which is a reasonable conclusion to draw based on scientific evidence. But I guess I'm egotistical for not agreeing you, and your interpretation of evidence, when I have evidence to back my claims up, first hand and observed experience, and am using logical reasoning.
Below is a quote from your own expert source:


"Diane, you raise some very good questions. In general, silicones work by covering hair with a thin hydrophobic (water-proof) coating. This coating serves several purposes: it helps reduce the porosity of the hair which makes it less likely to absorb humidity; it helps reduce moisture loss from the inside of the hair; and it lubricates the surface of the hair so it feel smoother and combs easier."

It coats the cuticle! It is a water proof coating, therefore it blocks a significant amount of water from entering the cuticle. Reduces the porosity of your hair! So if your hair is low porosity already, wouldn't that be more unbeneficial? Is hair porosity another fabrication of my mind? The porosity and type of your hair doesn't make a substantial difference in the way your hair responds to products that behave this way? It does and that has already been proven, testified, etc.  that's not cultist thinking, that's logical reasoning.


btw these studies that prove "unequivocally" that silicones couldn't possibly ever dry out out the hair, what types of hair are these studies being done on? White, caucasian hair? High porosity hair? Are they actually even being done on natural, low porosity, type 4 hair that you can speak with such unequivocation when it comes to hair products? People can testify silicones to dry out the hair, myself included.


"The properties vary depending on which particular silicone is in the formula. Some silicones do leave a heavy coating on the hair that can be hard to wash off. Others are very water soluble and don’t buildup at all. Dimethicone, (sometimes called simethicone) for example, is the heaviest of all silicones used for hair care. It provides the most smoothing effect but it is also the hardest to wash out. "

Ingredients to Hello Hydration Conditioner:
Water , Stearyl Alcohol , Behentrimonium Chloride , Cetyl Alcohol , Bis Aminopropyl Dimethicone , Zea Mays (Corn) Silk Extract , Orchis Mascula Flower Extract , Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Fruit Extract , Fragrance , Benzyl Alcohol , Disodium EDTA , Sodium Hydroxide , Methylchloroisothiazolinone , Methylisothiazolinone , Blue 1


Is it fear mongering to point out the obvious? I do not believe in fear mongering, but I also don't believe in sugar coating something that can be taking away from your hair's health. If she happens to have higher porosity hair, it won't negatively effect her, I said that. But if her hair is lower porosity these products need to be avoided. She can experiment all she want to make an informed decision, that highlights both the negative and positive aspect of silicones for different types of hair and why, so she knows why it does or doesn't work for her hair. An unwater soluable silicone is in the first 5 ingredients of her conditioner. It's a fact that that type of silicone can only be thoroughly removed by a sulfate, it isn't water soluable.
Here's a quote from curl chemist:


http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-amodimethicone-and-other-amine-functionalized-silicones

"These modified silicones seem to be of particular benefit for those of us with damaged hair, permanently colored hair or those concerned about the buildup of conditioning agents. It would be necessary to use a shampoo containing one of the lauryl or laureth sulfates or cocamidopropyl betaine to completely remove this silicone from the hair, which may be of concern to those who prefer to use only conditioner-cleansing methods."

Damaged, or high porosity hair. Low porosity's will not benefit from the use of silicones!

In regards to the woman who experienced balding from silicones. If it builds up on your scalp, it can even clog the hair folicle and cause hair loss. This is probably what happened to the woman who experienced balding. Now her situation is unique, but no where near impossible. It all depends on the fragility of her hair. What is the hair type? The thickness? The porosity? We don't know what kind of silicones she was using, and they could've very well been the heavier one needed to avoid.

http://swfl.naturalawakeningsmag.com/SWFL/May-2012/Best-Tressed-Help-for-Hair/
"Stylists such as Julie Chandler, owner of Salon Shangri-la, in Bonita Springs, look for the root cause, starting with hair care products that women use. “The majority of commercial products contain synthetic silicones, which are inexpensive ingredients that coat the hair to give it a smooth, healthy feeling,” she explains. “Unfortunately, the synthetic silicone builds up on the scalp and clogs the hair follicle, causing it to die and the hair to fall out.”

http://www.pinksith.com/2013/05/silicones-in-hair-care-what-you-need-to.html
"You know how I talked about long term use causing damage to some types of hair, well this is where I explain why.  Non-soluble silicones require the help of sulfate shampoos and cleansers in order to remove the silicone coating from the hair.   This may seem meaningless to some, however if you are trying to retain moisture in your hair then you may want to refrain from using non-soluble silicone products.  Why?  Well, in addition from having to use drying sulfate based cleansers, the silicone coating on the hair prevents moisture, protein, or other products from penetrating the hair shaft.   Additionally, when an overload of silicone products are applied to hair, the buildup from the silicone coating eventually causes breakage.  (If your hair is already dry or prone to breakage)"
 
People can get silicone overload the same way they can get protein overload. No, not everyone's hair does this, but it all relies on identifiable aspects of the individual's hair, and even scalp condition.

Cowashing would never be enough to remove the unwater soluable silicones, and they cling to the hair. Especially if your cowash has silicones in it.

Is that psuedo science? It's in your OWN quote.


"Cowash will not be enough and the silicone may start to build up and weigh down your hair.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2010/01/27/will-silicone-build-up-on-my-hair/"

Lady aradia"(weighing down is more a problem amongst Caucasians than African Americans who may welcome elongation time)"

Why do you think the elogation happens? Because of build up. A combination of blocking moisture to prevent hair from shrinking and weight of build up on the hair. Hang time doesn't always equate to hair health. moisture retention is different from weighing down due to build up. In african american hair a lot of the time dehydrated elongation look is also met with frizz and dryness as a side effect. To get the hair to stretch, moisture needs to be lacking. They say it right there, silicones can build up and weigh hair down. Build up blocks moisture from entering the hair cuticle. You agree that silicones weigh down the hair and that is the reason why they do.

 I see your cosmotogoist mindset pretty clear. Majority of cosmotologists have been trained to deal with straight hair, they aren't experts on curly hair. This has only been a recent thing, and even then they still make mistakes. There's many the testimony when it comes to that. Laurraine Massie is a curly hair expert. You believe in the more relaxed mindset of hangtime, use of heavy products, silicones, that build up on the hair for a more weighed down look and cuticle blockage. These practices are more ideal for higher porosity hair types and relaxed hair.  But those practices do not make the hair more moisturized, which curly hair desperately needs in order to appear healthy and be healthy. You seemed to be undermining the importance of moisture and are focused on oils and loosening of the curl.

Lady Aradia: "If silicones or oils prevented all moisture absorption, hair that was flat ironed with silicone would never revert when you cleanse it."


Silicones can build up on the hair. No matter if they are permeable or not, they still can build up, and they still block out enough moisture to be said to "lower the porosity of your hair" and be called "water proof". Says it in your own credible quote. If allowed to build up, your curl pattern can become weighed down, limper and frizzier, and less defined. Your sensitivity to this build up and how it effects your hair depends greatly on your hair's porosity and curl type, which is what I was emphasizing.

Also, the use of silicones and then flat ironing can actually cause silicone damage.

A quote from Scott Cornwall, hair expert:


http://scottcornwall.blogspot.com/2012/08/clarifying-hair-and-silicone-damage.html


"What is Silicone Damage?

If you use heated styling products such as hot irons you can seal this build up onto the hair, gluing down the cuticle layer, trapping in the silicone and making it difficult to remove."

"In some instances a straightening iron can reach such a high temperature that the silicone molecule actually reaches boiling point and melts onto the hair shaft." (the melting would only happen if the heat was too high.)

Lady Aradia:
 "Hair DOES revert when you cleanse it even if you use silicones or oils for years and never use sulfates to cleanse it.

You cannot properly cleanse unwater soluable silicones with out the use of sulfates, unless you hair is highly poros, than it which case it likes the extra build up.

Lady Aradia: "Now silicones and oils DO help to slow down the reverting and puffiness when you go out in humidity but they do not block out all water or moisture."


Why do they slow down the reverting process? because at some level they block moisture from getting in, they make it increasingly difficult to moisturize you hair the more it builds up.
You are even contradicting your self in several places,
in this sense.


Lady Aradia:"Hair dryness is more an issue of lack of lipids or natural fatty, moist substances in the strand.  This is addressed in one of the articles below. So water or hydration alone is not going to make your hair feel less dry. In fact as the hair dries from water alone, it will take with it a lot of natural oils also evaporating from the strand leaving the hair DRYER."

I never said anything to combat this. But sealing in with a silicone conditioner or oil alone wouldn't be enough to hold water on the hair. Water is what actually moisturizes the hair. If you only used oils either, your hair would not be moisturized. Oils are lubricants and sealants. They alone do not moisturize the hair, period. And once unwater soluable silicones have sealed your hair you can not remove it with out stripping those natural oils you are speaking of. If you don't cleanse it, you will have problems re-introducing moisture into the hair. What was meant to seal in moisture now serves to block it from properly penetrating. Gel is the best agent for sealing in moisture, as long as it doesn't contain products that are difficult to cleanse and build up.

 
Lady Aradia: "Furthermore, adding drying agents like vinegar and baking soda will eat out even more of the few lipids (fats) the strands have and leave the hair dryer. It may feel softer when it is wet because you have dissolved some of the keratin similar to the way a relaxer dissolves some of the keratin and cuticle. This is why some naturals notice a smoother curl pattern after baking soda.They've swollen the strands as much as a relaxer with the baking soda which causes destruction of some of the disulfide bonds that form kinks and curl patterns."


Baking soda and apple cider vinegar do not dissolve the hair cuticle or hair protein. that is a 100% FALSE claim, by you, a cosmotologist. That is the most backwards statement I have ever heard, psuedo science from the "expert" who claims to not use it. The only thing they do is change the ph. Baking soda is no where near the ph of a relaxer. THAT is baloney. And this proves it, with real, truthful science.

 http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2009/11/myth-or-fact-baking-soda-relaxer.html


"From my experiment using my baking soda (Sainsbury's brand if you are interested), there was no 'relaxing' of the curl.

I think it matters that the baking soda I used had some corn starch in it (all the ones on the shelf did too). Its http://thenaturalhaven.blogspot.com/2009/04/blog-experiment-ph-and-your-hair.html" rel="nofollow - pH was 7-8 (as measured by me). Some people report that pure baking soda should have a pH of 9. Relaxers have a pH of 10-12. I do think people should know that the pH of the relaxer is important towards relaxing hair but more important is the ability to break the bonds of the hair. In short, I do not think that baking soda can break bonds.

I think much like the http://thenaturalhaven.blogspot.com/2009/05/myth-or-fact-coconutlime-relaxer.html" rel="nofollow - coconut lime relaxer , some people are confusing moisturised hair with relaxed hair. "


Lady Aradia: "This is the same thing that relaxers do to the hair, swell the strand and cause the disulfide curl bonds to break.. (You've essentially eroded  some of the strand off and zapped out its natural oils. That is why it will feel dryer when it dries after zapping the hair with corrosive vinegar and baking soda.
"

That is a complete confabulation of facts. This is the pseudo science people. She is neither speaking from experience or actual scientific facts, but has now resorted to making up her own facts under the guise of being a cosmetologist. Either that, or you are attempting to twist around what i am saying. White Vinegar is corrosive. It has a ph of 2.4. APPLE CIDER Vinegar falls in around the same ph as the hair does once ph balanced.
Typically the pH of apple cider vinegar is around 4.25 to 4.75, depending on the brand. It is not corrosive. That ph alone can not eat the bonds of the hair. Also, following a rinse I've never had dryer hair, if anything, this method allows you to retain more moisture in the long run, and your hair defines and feels softer even on product free dry hair.

A good conditioner contains many moisturizing agents including some oils that can actually absorb into the hair, since it is water based. The method I've been pitching includes deep conditioning or steming directly after the rinses. And if you are doing a baking soda rinse, that moisture really gets to penetrate the strand, on much higher levels than it would with just regular cowash, or worse a cowash with silicones. THAT is why people notice softer hair. So don't try and twist it around with lies, to get people to agree silicones are for everyone. This method

  http://forum.blackhairmedia.com/the-max-hydration-methodfrom-my-other-post_topic368937.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.blackhairmedia.com/the-max-hydration-methodfrom-my-other-post_topic368937.html
works and has already been shown to work. My hair actually has a curl pattern when dry and it feels significantly softer than before. Other People trying out this method are reporting immediate changes. As soon as aketafitgirl and danabnatural started incorporating proper clarifying and moisture retention techniques, that is when their hair became healthier and started to retain moisture.


"Healthy curly hair should have a pH balance of 4.5-5.5 to combat frizz, and add strength and shine."
http://www.frizzoff.com/PHLevels.aspx

Not to mention it is being diluted with water, further raising the ph. Many gentle hair products also fall into this ph as it is better absorbed by the hair that way. If they do not corrode the hair, neither will acv rinse.


ACV is helpful in gently removing build up from gel or heavy oil you are using. (though not strong enough to remove silicones.)



Audrey Davis-Sivasothy, author of hair care rehab and the science of black hair recommend acv rinses, bakingsoda rinses, and bentonite clay treatment in her book.

Baking soda rinses can be drying if you aren't diluting with conditioner and water. It is still gentler that sulfates. 1-1.5 tablespoons of baking soda with a 1/3 cup conditioner, and a few ounces of water in a rinse, especially followed by a steaming or ghe/ Deep condition does not dry out the hair. It simultaneously removes build up from gel and lifts the cuticle, allowing for better absorption of moisturizing agents like conditioner and water. It will, if done correctly, actually make your hair more moisturized, and increase your hair's moisture retention levels. If you have dryness after a rinse and your hair doesn't seem to be taking to moisture, just close your cuticles with a quick acv rinse and your hair will get back to normal. Nothing is permantly changed. The rinse is meant to clarify the hair of build up and product residue. If you were only using oils on your hair instead of gel, you could dilute the mixture further, to 1-2 teaspoons in 1/3 cup of conditioner and a few ounces of water instead. The quantities/concentrations and measurements used play a big role and shouldn't be blindly overgeneralized. That stripping effect isn't going to happen with proper dilution of the mixture. Also, Actual Scientists have already stated ph's up to 4 - 9 do not have a significant effect on the hair. All they do is lift or close the cuticle, due to their ph, which is temporary. Sodium bicarbonate, aka, baking soda has a ph of 8.4. Relaxers have a ph of 10-14. The ingredient that does this is the high levels sodium hydroxide, and/or other hydroxides. That psuedo science? Sounds like real science to me.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bases-ph-d_402.html


http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/en/ph.pdf
"In addition, solutions of pH 10–12.5 have been reported to cause hair fibres to swell."

A ph of only 8.4 could never cause the hair fibres to swell.


http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/investigation-does-ph-affect-your-hair.html

"There are two authoritative studies on this with pretty similar results. There is very little change to hair structure between the pH ranges of 4 to 9. Hair protein resists changes due to acid or base. Tests were performed using hydrochloric acid (powerful acid) and sodium hydroxide (a strong base)."

" Hair does not absorb noticeable amounts of acid or base between pH 4-10" ( J Soc Cosmet Chem, pp 393-405, 1981)
"The cuticle separation distance is within the same range between pH 4 -9" (J Invest Dermatol 105: pp96-99, 1995)



Those enough studies for you?


Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 7:24pm



http:// http://blog.kanelstrand.com/2014/01/baking-soda-destroyed-my-hair.html" rel="nofollow - blog.kanelstrand.com/2014/01/baking-soda-destroyed-my-hair.html

Relaxer pH starts at 10


"When speaking of baking soda, it's sort of like a double edged sword..One on hand, it has the capability of softening and thoroughly cleansing the hair. This is more of a cosmetic feel. But baking soda, on the other hand is a gritty abrasive material almost like fine sand, which is what makes it an awesome household cleansing tool, and has a very high alkalinic pH of 9, which is like a weak chemical relaxer. While it may make the hair feel good for the moment, viewing hair strands that have had consistent use of baking soda under a microscope, shows scratches and abrasions on the hair cuticle. Due to the high alkalinic pH it increases the amount of hair swelling. This swelling weakens the hair fiber over time. So before we indulge in the Arm and Hammer goodness of clean to our natural tresses to achieve a wonderful squeaky clean, try using a natural clarifying shampoo instead and be sure to follow up with a deep condition..Happy Natty Day!!"
https:// https://www.facebook.com/AllThingsonatural/posts/416838545008205c" rel="nofollow - www.facebook.com/AllThingsonatural/posts/416838545008205c

http:// http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/low-porosity/126372-baking-soda-low-porosity-hair.html" rel="nofollow - www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/low-porosity/126372-baking-soda-low-porosity-hair.html


I am tired of this. Do what makes you happy.

PS: The Ancient Egyptians used baking soda and salt (aka NATRON) to mummify corpses. I don't know if you're aiming for hair as dried out as a mummy corpse.... But that is NOT what I am aiming for. ALSO, I advocate use of 1/2 water 1/2 oil with an emulsifying agent (ie creams) NOT ALL OIL. So please don't try to re quote what I said bc you intentionally get it wrong.


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:




http:// http://blog.kanelstrand.com/2014/01/baking-soda-destroyed-my-hair.html" rel="nofollow - blog.kanelstrand.com/2014/01/baking-soda-destroyed-my-hair.html

Relaxer pH starts at 10
https://www.facebook.com/AllThingsonatural/posts/416838545008205c
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/low-porosity/126372-baking-soda-low-porosity-hair.html


I am tired of this. Do what makes you happy.


Alright, so you showed an example of a caucasian with straight, possibly high porosity hair. Not only that, but it doesn't contradict anything i say, as they same way i recommend cuticle coating techniques for higher poros hair and not for low poros hair, I recommend bakingsoda treatments for lowporos hair, not high poros hair. I'm pretty sure I said repeatedly in some fashion, hair type is one of the main things that contribute to how and why your hair reacts a certain way to products.

Now the hypocrisy begins. So according to you, silicones which primary function is to coat the hair cuticle, could never be bad for low porosity hair. That is, according to you "pseudo science". You tried to make it seems like I said silicones were harmful for all hairtypes, but I didn't. I mentioned the contrary, several times throughout this post.

But a random woman on the internet with high porosity STRAIGHT hair complains about bakingsoda ruining her hair is correct,
Because you say so. Making overgeneralized, fear mongering statements that no one should ever use it, isn't psuedo science when you say it, even though scientific evidence already said ph of 4-9 doesn't significantly effect the hair shaft. But I guess when you propagate myths, it's okay. Not to mention you are not taking to account her lack dilution of the bakingsoda with conditioner (which is what i have suggested, I never said anything about putting it with just water on the hair.) or her porosity and hair texture-- now those same generalized rules apply to all hair types as well, including low porosity hair.  Even though scientific chemists with PH.Ds show bakingsoda to have a ph of 8.4, and I can find many, many, credible sources (not from random social media posts on the internet, but from "experts" like you previously emphasized. Scientists.)  that directly support that.  Also, if the hair does react that way, the effects are reversible with an acv rinse.

now would be the correct time to say "psuedo science"

http://www.archure.net/salus/ph.html

"8.3 - Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate)" By Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/acidsbases/a/phtable.htm


The first time I did a bakingsoda rinse, I tried it with just diluted with water on hair that only had olive oil in it(which i belive is where the problem lies, and why i don't recommend it used in that way) , my hair adamantly rebelled. I put conditioner on top afterward and my hair just wasn't taking to it, and felt dry. One acv rinse and the problem was solved, my hair felt soft again, and not only that, i had root to tip definition. It cannot permanently damage your hair, you just need to know what to do reclose the cuticle. But diluting with conditioner has given me zero problems, and has actually significanltly improved my hair. Along with that I also deep condition overnight. If I ever notice more dryness after a rinse, i know know it's because I don't have enough product on my hair to need that level of clarifying(this dilution level is to lift the gel and other build up off your hair, not on bare hair), and that tells me to dilute the baking soda futher, using a teaspoon instead of a tablespoon. Also may of the conditioners We used have a low ph. Water has a ph of seven. a neutral ph isn't going to actively change anything. It's the addition and concentrations of higher and lower phs that change the ph of something, hence conditioner.

All these things, porosity, hair type, the way you diluted the product, what you diluted it with(conditioner), How clean your hair is to determine the appropriate ratio. To ignore all these and make generalized statements is pseudo science and overgeneralizing.




Posted By: DEE80
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 7:44pm
@Lady You gave a lot of good information. Wow. I still have my hello hydration conditioner. I never threw it out. I just sat it aside. I never had any issues with it. I'm just co-washing with VO5 tea therapy daily since I'm using a sulfur mix.

The same thing can be said about hair grease. I used hair grease until I was 29 years old and my hair was WL until I chopped it off. It wasn't thin either. So I have to agree that naturals tend to go crazy over the whole silicone, petroleum thing. I got scared because this woman had bald spots because she said she used silicones. I'm going to find the video and post it here.


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by DEE80 DEE80 wrote:

@Lady You gave a lot of good information. Wow. I still have my hello hydration conditioner. I never threw it out. I just sat it aside. I never had any issues with it. I'm just co-washing with VO5 tea therapy daily since I'm using a sulfur mix.

The same thing can be said about hair grease. I used hair grease until I was 29 years old and my hair was WL until I chopped it off. It wasn't thin either. So I have to agree that naturals tend to go crazy over the whole silicone, petroleum thing. I got scared because this woman had bald spots because she said she used silicones. I'm going to find the video and post it here.


What is your hair type? A lot of hair has different toleration levels to these things, and it really has to do with hair type and hair porosity. I'm not trying to fear monger. But hair doesn't behave randomly and those are the primary reasons why some people's hair doesn't like certain products and others do. You have to be able to identify certain traits like these in your hair so you can make the connection of compatibility or incompatibility as to why a product does and doesn't work. I have type 4 low porosity hair and my hair hates silicones and grease. It's up to the individual hair type. This is meant to highlight that fact.


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 8:17pm
"While there are two categories of silicones, one type is not better than the other because silicones do not actually benefit the hair in any way.   In fact, silicones only give the “appearance” of healthier hair.   Silicones coat the hair to make it appear sleeker, frizz free and healthier. "

http://blackhairmedia.com/hair-care/silicones-in-hair-products-good-or-bad/


Posted By: aharri23
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by DEE80 DEE80 wrote:

@Lady You gave a lot of good information. Wow. I still have my hello hydration conditioner. I never threw it out. I just sat it aside. I never had any issues with it. I'm just co-washing with VO5 tea therapy daily since I'm using a sulfur mix.

The same thing can be said about hair grease. I used hair grease until I was 29 years old and my hair was WL until I chopped it off. It wasn't thin either. So I have to agree that naturals tend to go crazy over the whole silicone, petroleum thing. I got scared because this woman had bald spots because she said she used silicones. I'm going to find the video and post it here.
Naturals going crazy? I'm not even sure if the whole silicone thing is 100% accurate but why take a chance over a conditioner when theres a silicone free one that does the same thing? I'd rather just get a silicione free conditioner and have a clear mind.


Posted By: exceedinggrace
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

"But baking soda, on the other hand is a gritty abrasive material almost like fine sand, which is what makes it an awesome household cleansing tool!"


baking soda dissolves tho. it even says so on the box 2 use in shampoo. My hair dsn't feel like mummy, & i've been using it... Pink's right ur fear mongering & making stuff up. She has already proven herside imo, I read everything & didn't see anything untrue there. She's not misquoting u, its a direct quote. In ur post u said baking soda strips oil from the hair, & said oils(lipids r oils) r the real moisture agents. oils don't moisturize hairErmm


Posted By: OhMyCurlz
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 10:51pm
Silicones will not make your hair fall out. LOL

The silicone protein scare is propaganda spread by natural hair companies as well as those profiting off of the curly hair community (ie Curl Girl book). I know this for a fact.....I owned a natural hair care line and we advertised the same "no-silicones" ploy as a selling point. It's bunk. That's why chemists have no clue where this scare even came from because it's baseless. ...it's also why we can get away with selling a "natural conditioner" to you for $16.99 for 8 oz, where as a product with actives and silicones that will provide the same level of performance and better slip costs much less. 

There is less than stellar "information" about behentrimonium methosulfate and cetearyl alcohol too...but those are the emulsifiers in your "natural conditioner". If used in very high percentages that can also cause "build up" as these are "naturally derived" wax pellets. 

Your hair may not respond well to a formula or the amount of an ingredient used, but to isolate one ingredient in an entire formula as the culprit of why your hair responded badly when it is very low on an ingredient list is a tad ridiculous. Not everyone who is claiming "silicone sensitive" is actually "silicone sensitive" they are just band wagon hoppers. People need to do their own research from a reputable source and use common sense. 

A product made of 99% silicone is different from a product with 0.5% silicone in it. 

Silicones do not form an impenetrable barrier over the hair. 


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 11:29pm
I had 2 delete this post, since It duplicated when I edited it for some reason. My reply to OhMyCurls is on the next page


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by exceedinggrace exceedinggrace wrote:

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

"But baking soda, on the other hand is a gritty abrasive material almost like fine sand, which is what makes it an awesome household cleansing tool!"


baking soda dissolves tho. it even says so on the box 2 use in shampoo. My hair dsn't feel like mummy, & i've been using it... Pink's right ur fear mongering & making stuff up. She has already proven herside imo, I read everything & didn't see anything untrue there. She's not misquoting u, its a direct quote. In ur post u said baking soda strips oil from the hair, & said oils(lipids r oils) r the real moisture agents. oils don't moisturize hairErmm

You are right exceeding. I've never felt grittiness or abrasiveness when rinsing out my bakingsoda mixture. It dissolves. My hair felt soft upon rinse out, other users who tried it reported softer hair upon rinse out, you report softer hair upon rinse out, danabnatural on youtube reports softer hair (although she didn't do the rinse in conjunction w/ deep conditioning like I recommend). Lady Aradia's grasping at straws that aren't there. Not only that, when people use bakingsoda to cleanse and exfoliate, they don't add more than a couple teaspoons of water to it, otherwise it will dissolve it along with the abrasive property. Usually, they will mix it with a small amount lemon for an exfoliating effect. It forms a paste because the ratios of baking soda to water is higher,(3 parts bakingsoda, to one part water. So in 1 tablespoon of baking soda, you would put one teaspoon of water for the paste consistency. 3 tspns = 1 tbsp) and will only partially dissolve it. That's why the way you dilute it, and the quantities you use are important, and you should ignore the over-generalizations and fear mongering people try to perpetuate in a desperate attempt to prove a point they don't have.

 My mixture entails a 3rd cup of conditioner and 2-4 oz of water. Enough to water down the conditioner, but not so much that the consistency becomes too watery. As a household cleaner, it does a good job of gently lifting away grease. When mixed with water. In that state it isnt abrasive, and That is why it is called a gentle household cleaner that doesnt scratch surfaces. If it scratched the hair, it wouldn't say on the box, mix it into your shampoo. Yes, it says it on the box.


My mixture goes further to eliminate the stripping effect. You also add in your sulfate and silicone free conditioner. Not only that, but the amount of bakingsoda used can be minimized depending on how much build up you actually need to remove from the hair. If you use a oil or soft gel, you can use less. If your gel has more cast, you use more bakingsoda (2 tbspn max), and can really determine the best measurement of baking for you based on how much actually needs to be removed. Not only that, you deep condition, ghe or steam afterword. Its simple, and flexible.


Here's some info about emollients, and my so called misquote. They function the same way and even include oils, so I'm not understanding where this so called "misquote" is. I copied and pasted it that quote directly from her post where she basically talked about oils an emollients. Emulsifiers can also act as emollients, she saying the same thing in a different way. Fatty hair sebum is both an emulsifier and emollient. Many oils act as both as well, and alone they do nothing to moisturize. They can lubricate, seal, and some can act as humectants. That's why conditioners work(the ones with emollients that can be thoroughly but gently washed off, not nonwater soluable silicones), because they contain emollients while being water based.

The following are Lady Aradia's own cited quotes from chemists. I am really not contradicting what they are saying at all:

"Even if you did block your hair from absorbing moisture, the silicone would act like a moisturizing agent because it would plasticize and lubricate your hair."
http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/02/16/does-silicone-suffocate-hair/

 Silicone is an emollient. It does not moisturize the hair. Only water can do that. It works in conjunction with water, the real moisturizer hence why they are considered moisturizing agents. They do not, however, directly moisturize hair on their own. fact. At best, it can give the appearance of shinier hair, and will lubricate the hair. But emollients have to work with water to be effective moisturizing agents. So if they are coating the strand they are blocking a significant amount of water from entering the shaft. Working against moisture. Enough for it to be considered a "hydrophobic coating" and to "reduce the porosity of your hair". If it didn't function in some way to hinder moisture, people wouldn't report, "hangtime" like lady aradia said, and a chemist wouldn't consider it water proof. It isn't completely permeable, otherwise it wouldn't be considered, a hydrophobic coating. It doesn't matter if it's permeable, because not only are most emollients permeable to some degree, and also most films created on the hair are never perfect, but they can build up and significantly hinder moisture from entering the cuticle. It's the same thing I experienced with mineral oil. Even though I was spritzing my hair everyday, since I already sealed with it,  the moisture just sat on my hair. Did I get shrinkage? Of course! But my hair felt like straw, and was frizzy, and undefined, becuase that is not the ideal way to reintroduce moisture to the hair.

"Some silicones do leave a heavy coating on the hair that can be hard to wash off."
http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/23/what-do-silicones-do-for-your-hair/

"water insoluble silicones can build up on hair, that much is true. And if you over-use products like this everyday, it is possible to end up with hair that feels weighed down and limp."
http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/02/16/does-silicone-suffocate-hair/

"silicones work by covering hair with a thin hydrophobic (water-proof) coating. This coating serves several purposes: it helps reduce the porosity of the hair which makes it less likely to absorb humidity; it helps reduce moisture loss from the inside of the hair; and it lubricates the surface of the hair so it feel smoother and combs easier."
http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/29/are-silicones-bad-for-your-hair/

by the way, the argument, the only real argument I see is that even though its blocks humidity, majority of our hair doesn't absorb water from the atmosphere anyway. But african american hair generally is dry and it would never be enough to rely on the atmosphere to our hair. That is why I say reintroducing moisture, as in, applying water and conditioner(which is water based) directly to your hair.

If I spritzed my hair and I already had a heavy oil blocking my cuticles, my hair would not define, it would not be moisturized, and that water from conditioner would evaporate in a few hours, leaving my hair as dry as before. The order you layer is extremely important. Oil is a barrier to water. They do not mix. The LOC method is flawed in this sense. It makes no sense to expect moisture to be sealed in when you apply it to the outside. Conditioner is water based, and is a moisturizer. The best method is LCO or even LCOC. But the softness achieved from spraying water or moisturizer on top of an oil is temporary



exactly what I have been saying, oils and emollients lubricate, not moisturize. They need to work with water, and they have already admitted it can build up on the hair, be difficult to remove. And what is is going to do, it will form a "plastic and lubricating" barrier. However, this is not true moisture, and does nothing to really benefit the hair except in high poros hair to fill in the hair cuticle. Low porosity doesn't need that.



http://blackhairmedia.com/hair-care/silicones-in-hair-products-good-or-bad/

"While there are two categories of silicones, one type is not better than the other because silicones do not actually benefit the hair in any way.   In fact, silicones only give the “appearance” of healthier hair.   Silicones coat the hair to make it appear sleeker, frizz free and healthier. "

"The use of silicone depends on how your hair reacts to it.   If your hair doesn’t have a bad reaction, there is nothing wrong with using water soluble silicone products."

^What I have been saying this whole time

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/182953.php

"An emollient is a humectant, lubricant and occluder. Occlusion provides a layer of oil on the skin's surface, thus slowing down water loss. A humectant enhances the surface of the skin's capacity to hold water. A lubricant reduces friction when anything rubs against the skin."

Occlusion=seal. Lubricant= Lubricant. Humectant= glycerin, which can actually pull moisture out of the hair in dry climates, environments, and seasons. Also not water soluable. (Also, when they do pull in water, they pull water towards the surface. Actual absorption isn't guaranteed.) Emollients need to work with water, they do not directly moisturize and in some cases can act against water absorption. It's the exact reason build up causes dry hair. otherwise oil build up would moisturize hair. I hope you won't try to write this off as a misquote, Lady Aradia because it isn't.



Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 1:19am
Originally posted by OhMyCurlz OhMyCurlz wrote:

"Silicones will not make your hair fall out. "


That either way cannot be said unequivocally. Everyone's individual situation and circumstances is different.

Originally posted by OhMyCurlz OhMyCurlz wrote:

"The silicone protein scare is propaganda spread by natural hair companies as well as those profiting off of the curly hair community (ie Curl Girl book). I know this for a fact.....I owned a natural hair care line and we advertised the same "no-silicones" ploy as a selling point. It's bunk. That's why chemists have no clue where this scare even came from because it's baseless. ...it's also why we can get away with selling a "natural conditioner" to you for $16.99 for 8 oz, where as a product with actives and silicones that will provide the same level of performance and better slip costs much less."


I used a lot quotes from several reliable sources that backed up what I say. Read them, please. Secondly you don't know for a fact which kind of conditioner the woman with bald spots used. I honestly think you need to be using a high concentration of silicones and also be only cowashing for that to happen. I'm not trying to spread silicone bald spot propaganda, although I do believe it is possible, the same way it is possible to get bald spots from proteins, which i have directly experienced and experimented with different gels.

 Back when I was relaxed, I used to use proclaim protein styling gel. My hair had zero problems. When I used ecostyler, the first gel I used when becoming natural it started to thin out my hair. Then, I even got a bald spot. I experimented with the gel under different conditions, different hair styles and the result was the same. I tried to use other gels (I went back to using the proclaim) My hair still was getting thinner. I wasn't on any bandwagon, this was just my experience, and i even went to further lengths to reason why the bald spot were occuring. Was it headbands? No, I rarely wore them, and even they weren't tight, nor did they pose problems before use of the gel. Was it my conditioner? No, It never caused me hair loss before. It's the gel. Why? I experimented using different gels. I eventually identified protein to be the problem. But was still confused as to why it hadn't caused me problems in my relaxed days.

I eventually realized I could not treat my relaxed hair the same way I treat my low porosity type 4 hair. Relaxed hair has alot of the bonds broken from the chemical treatment, resulting in more poros strands. Silicones and proteins are beneficial because the high porous hair wants those bonds filled. Low porosity already has a setback when it comes to absorbing moisture. To get maximum moisture retention, it's best to eliminate products that further block the cuticle. It doesn't want more of these. If these silicones did not have a significant effect on the amount your moisture your hair gets, they wouldn't result in "hang time" like Lady Aradia said. Reversion wouldn't be limited or slowed. The coating my be permeable but for it to form a coating and for a chemist to call is "hydrophobic/water proof" and say it helps "lower the porosity of the hair" mentioning that is permeable is a bit redundant to what I have been saying. it does make water increasingly difficult for
low porous hair to absorb. Also almost anything that coats on the hair is permeable to some degree. This is because the film is never perfect, there are gaps. Hair even shrinks with mineral oil. That means mineral oil is permeable, correct? But it is also proven to be extremely drying for many hair types. It gets increasingly difficult as the silicones are allowed to build up on the hair, and these non-water soluable silicones are difficult to remove without sulfates. They aren't like most products that build up on the hair in that way.  This let me know that silicones, because of the way they behave, are not compatible for certain hair types. This doesn't necessarily mean you'll get bald spots, but in can contribute to hindered moisture retention. The main point is that your hair's porosity and type have a significant impact on your hair's compatibility to products. This is what I keep emphasizing.

Originally posted by OhMyCurlz OhMyCurlz wrote:

"There is less than stellar "information" about behentrimonium methosulfate and cetearyl alcohol too...but those are the emulsifiers in your "natural conditioner". If used in very high percentages that can also cause "build up" as these are "naturally derived" wax pellets."


I am not against either of those ingredients. Just like I'm not against olive oil. ALL oils are emollients, and many are emulsifiers. Hair's sebum is an emulsifier. Anything can build up on the hair, including hair sebum. But not everything requires sulfates to properly remove the residue and build up. The resistance to removal is one the main problems with nonwater soluable silicones
.

Originally posted by OhMyCurlz OhMyCurlz wrote:

"Your hair may not respond well to a formula or the amount of an ingredient used, but to isolate one ingredient in an entire formula as the culprit of why your hair responded badly when it is very low on an ingredient list is a tad ridiculous. "

"A product made of 99% silicone is different from a product with 0.5% silicone in it. "

The cone in her conditioner is within the top 5 ingredients. That is a significant amount to hinder moisture on some levels. Generally if you are avoiding a product, you identify the first 5 ingredients. And we don't yet know how much cones were in the woman who had bald spot's conditioner.

Originally posted by OhMyCurls OhMyCurls wrote:

"Not everyone who is claiming "silicone sensitive" is actually "silicone sensitive" they are just band wagon hoppers. People need to do their own research from a reputable source and use common sense. "


that's your opinion
, not a fact. There are plenty of testimonies where people have observed their hair doesn't like it. It isn't fair to try and undermine them all as bandwagoning.  next thing you'll be claiming sulfates are mearly a marketing ploy. The chemist naturally curly they hire tells it like it is. She's a credible scientist. Pharasutical companies hire scientist to make sure a drug is safe. They are still privatized and make money, but does that mean the basic science should be undermined? No. Honestly that same argument can be used to describe many companies that pitch silicones as unequivocally good for everyone's hair. Are they not hiring scientists as well to market their product? This is done with many things. Everything you are saying is subjective.

Originally posted by OhMyCurlz OhMyCurlz wrote:

]
"Silicones do not form an impenetrable barrier over the hair. "


They form enough of a barrier to be considered water soluable and to lower the porosity of the hair. No barrier is impenetrable, but that doesn't mean my hair is getting as much moisture as it needs to feel hydrated. I also identified that silicones are permable in my post. However, it still blocks enough moisture to cause a problem in hair that is already low porosity.



Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 10:11am
Originally posted by OhMyCurlz OhMyCurlz wrote:

Silicones will not make your hair fall out. LOL

The silicone protein scare is propaganda spread by natural hair companies as well as those profiting off of the curly hair community (ie Curl Girl book). I know this for a fact.....I owned a natural hair care line and we advertised the same "no-silicones" ploy as a selling point. It's bunk. That's why chemists have no clue where this scare even came from because it's baseless. ...it's also why we can get away with selling a "natural conditioner" to you for $16.99 for 8 oz, where as a product with actives and silicones that will provide the same level of performance and better slip costs much less. 

There is less than stellar "information" about behentrimonium methosulfate and cetearyl alcohol too...but those are the emulsifiers in your "natural conditioner". If used in very high percentages that can also cause "build up" as these are "naturally derived" wax pellets. 

Your hair may not respond well to a formula or the amount of an ingredient used, but to isolate one ingredient in an entire formula as the culprit of why your hair responded badly when it is very low on an ingredient list is a tad ridiculous. Not everyone who is claiming "silicone sensitive" is actually "silicone sensitive" they are just band wagon hoppers. People need to do their own research from a reputable source and use common sense. 

A product made of 99% silicone is different from a product with 0.5% silicone in it. 

Silicones do not form an impenetrable barrier over the hair. 

Thank  you SO MUCH  Oh my Curlz. The natural hair product companies could not compete with the big companies. This is an advertising campaign to scare the customers into paying whatever the new small companies ask. I was told the same exact thing by my contacts who are still in the industry.
Let them pay outrageous prices.  They are sheep and they are falling right in line  with the campaigns being waged against their wallet. Let them. It's their own fault if they fall for it when we are telling them what is going on.






Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 10:19am
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Originally posted by OhMyCurlz OhMyCurlz wrote:

Silicones will not make your hair fall out. LOL

The silicone protein scare is propaganda spread by natural hair companies as well as those profiting off of the curly hair community (ie Curl Girl book). I know this for a fact.....I owned a natural hair care line and we advertised the same "no-silicones" ploy as a selling point. It's bunk. That's why chemists have no clue where this scare even came from because it's baseless. ...it's also why we can get away with selling a "natural conditioner" to you for $16.99 for 8 oz, where as a product with actives and silicones that will provide the same level of performance and better slip costs much less. 

There is less than stellar "information" about behentrimonium methosulfate and cetearyl alcohol too...but those are the emulsifiers in your "natural conditioner". If used in very high percentages that can also cause "build up" as these are "naturally derived" wax pellets. 

Your hair may not respond well to a formula or the amount of an ingredient used, but to isolate one ingredient in an entire formula as the culprit of why your hair responded badly when it is very low on an ingredient list is a tad ridiculous. Not everyone who is claiming "silicone sensitive" is actually "silicone sensitive" they are just band wagon hoppers. People need to do their own research from a reputable source and use common sense. 

A product made of 99% silicone is different from a product with 0.5% silicone in it. 

Silicones do not form an impenetrable barrier over the hair. 

Thank  you SO MUCH  Oh my Curlz. The natural hair product companies could not compete with the big companies. This is an advertising campaign to scare the customers into paying whatever the new small companies ask. I was told the same exact thing by my contacts who are still in the industry.
Let them pay outrageous prices.  They are sheep and they are falling right in line  with the campaigns being waged against their wallet. Let them. It's their own fault if they fall for it when we are telling them what is going on.


Oh please Lady Aradia. Trader Joes tea tree tingle costs $4. Trader Joes ph balancing conditioner, $3. Tresemme Naturals Radiant Volume Conditioner  $5. Give it a rest already with the straw grasping and fear mongering.

like i said to Oh My Curls. that's your opinion, not a fact. There are plenty of testimonies where people have observed their hair doesn't like it. It isn't fair to try and undermine them all as bandwagoning.  next thing you'll be claiming sulfates being drying are mearly a marketing ploy. The chemist naturally curly they hire tells it like it is. She's a credible, professional scientist and chemist, just like the ones from the examples you posted above earlier. Pharmaceutical companies hire scientist and chemists to make sure a drug is safe. They are still privatized and make money, but does that mean the basic science should be undermined? No. Honestly that same argument can be used to describe many companies that pitch silicones as unequivocally good for everyone's hair. Are they not hiring scientists as well to market their product? This is done with many things. Everything you are saying is subjective.


Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 10:26am
There was a video posted on here recently by a product manufacturer speaking to students at a beauty school explaining how these campaigns by product manufacturers  work. He used the example of how Clairol had total control of the hair color market. The advertising company for L'Oreal  was desperate to try to get some of the market from Clairol but they could not compete with Clairol's low price. So they decided to get a BLONDE actress, Cybill Shepherd who was hot in the show Moonlighting at the time. They had her to say "It''s expensive. But I'm worth it"

The gullible patrons came in groves to pay more for the hair color which the manufacturer said was the same formula as Clairol in a different box. They did this because of this advertising campaign designed to toy wi th the minds of the consumers to allow L'Oreal to compete with Clairol. 

He said that Clairol has never been able to recover its majority of the market from L'Oreal because everyone wanted to be "worth it" like the blonde actress

This case is almost  identical textbook case for advertisers. The curl companies can not compete with the big guys in manufacturing so in this case they appeal to FEAR instead of VANITY. I have taken classes in Marketing at  University. It is quite interesting how marketers and advertiser toy with consumer's fragile minds. LOL


PS: Get over yourself and stop trying to make this all about you.  HA who are you?. This is not about you pink and you are nothing to me to discredit or otherwise.  This is about the OP wanting opinions on a product.  


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 10:37am
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

There was a video posted on here recently by a product manufacturer speaking to students at a beauty school explaining how these campaigns by product manufacturers  work. He used the example of how Clairol had total control of the hair color market. The advertising company for L'Oreal  was desperate to try to get some of the market from Clairol but they could not compete with Clairol's low price. So they decided to get a BLONDE actress, Cybill Shepherd who was hot in the show Moonlighting at the time. They had her to say "It''s expensive. But I'm worth it"

The gullible patrons came in groves to pay more for the hair color which the manufacturer said was the same formula as Clairol in a different box. They did this because of this advertising campaign designed to toy wi th the minds of the consumers to allow L'Oreal to compete with Clairol. 

He said that Clairol has never been able to recover its majority of the market from L'Oreal because everyone wanted to be "worth it" like the blonde actress

This case is almost  identical textbook case for advertisers. The curl companies can not compete with the big guys in manufacturing so in this case they appeal to FEAR instead of VANITY. I have taken classes in Marketing at  University. It is quite interesting how marketers and advertiser toy with consumer's fragile minds. LOL

 Good try, but I'm not seeing a contradiction with the examples i put and what i said, in regards to this marketing explanation you are giving. LOL I said the exact same thing!  What you are doing right now could be considered a form of marketing for silicones. Many companies will market whatever is in their product and that applies to hair companies that use silicones too. It's all subjective. Marketing is marketing and every profit making company does it.

Many of the quotes and explanations I gave are based on many of the chemists and scientists, you purported to be "the only ones capable of educating on this topic." In the end, I found that none of the information they give directly contradicts what I am and have been saying. In fact, everything I have said has been in line with the scientific and chemical explanations, they support my logically and scientifically reasoned analysis. It's very clear to me you read none of it.

 Trader joes and tresseme naturals are obviously able to compete. They aren't even singularly curl companies. They don't contain those ingredients, and their prices are cheap! Newer, smaller businesses will always have to raise the price of their product. I have taken business, and business law classes, so you aren't going to pull the wool over my eyes here. You essentially proved what i was saying. What product it happens to contain doesn't really make a difference in that aspect. Marketing is marketing no matter what. You can't say it only applies to silicone free marketing.

next thing you'll be claiming sulfates being drying are merely a marketing ploy.  Pharmaceutical companies hire professional scientists and chemists to make sure a drug is safe. They are still privatized and marketing and business, but does that mean the scientists with degrees and chemists are wrong? no. I've well proven my reasoning that all throughout this post. I even used links directly from chemist websites, and from you own credible scientific quotes by the only people "qualified" to speak about this (that's what you said).  to prove what I'm saying is logical. You obviously are just trying to undermine everything I'm saying in anyway you can, but in the end
most you are saying is subjective and overgeneralized.


Posted By: kwicherbichen
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 11:58am
The science says that silicones act as a barrier. If your hair is not in healthy condition to absorb and release moisture well, having your hair constantly coated sounds like a BAD idea!!!

It makes sense to me that if your hair is chronically brittle and dry, constant use of a silicone without washing it out sounds awful. 

The best thing to do is to experiment with your hair. I personally have very dry brittle hair. I've found that ONE application of silicone is enough. Constantly putting silicone on my hair actually made my hair more DRY than if I just had that one application. And the one application was as effective as a non-silicone conditioner that I would pile on. I found, for me personally, if I did NOT wash the silicone out, my hair was dry. But I could continue to pile on the silicone-free with no issue. 




Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:


PS: Get over yourself and stop trying to make this all about you.  HA who are you?. This is not about you pink and you are nothing to me to discredit or otherwise.  This is about the OP wanting opinions on a product.  


Wow, you will really just say anything in order to win an argument, won't you. You are all over the place with your explanations, desperately grasping straws and filling this thread with misconstrued facts and lies. It doesn't matter who I am, and i do not care what you think about me. I've pretty much lost all respect for your so called qualifications in this debate. The facts and the information i put together speaks for itself, as well as your conduct during this discussion speaks for itself.

You claim not to lie or use pseudo science but you do, and then hypocritically and falsely accuse people of engaging in pseudo science, under the guise that you are a cosmotogist. I don't care what your career is, doesn't mean you can't lie and misinform people. you have proven that in this post. Now your argument has been completely degraded to using fear tactics, condescension, getting emotional, using lies, pseudo science, contradictions with professional chemists evidence, and even name calling. Wacko

I think we all know who has lost their credibility in this debate here. The OP didn't give any information about her hair type or the hair type of the woman who had bald spots. That is why, I gave that information in regards to low porosity type 4 hair, to help her identify whether the product would work for her. All science, all common sense. Every thing I have said has been supported by scientific facts and logical reasoning. Not by my emotions and not by pseudo science. I didn't misquote anything, like you tried to falsely accuse me of.

She can determine her own hair type, I didn't say anywhere that when someone with low porous hair type 4 uses silicones, they would go bald. I agreed with majority of the scientific evidence posted here, because it supported what i was trying to explain.

Who am I? Who cares, this is an open forum, and I'm allowed to speak what I have proven is true, and share information from my perspective. You do not own this forum, and you do not own me. Good day




Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 12:24pm
Thank you, kwicherbichen. Smile


Posted By: kwicherbichen
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 12:33pm
LadyAradia:

You posted great information, but NOTHING YOU HAVE POSTED de-bunks the information pinkecube has posted. You continue to debate based on rhetoric. Up your logic and actually ADDRESS the rebuttals pinkecube has posted -- otherwise you sound like a marketing campaign, yourself. 

You use silicone in your salon but you are seeing clients -- what? Once a week at the most? And you likely use a sulfate-shampoo which will wash it out. You are not doing daily co-washes for these clients... 

The OP agrees with you. You have convinced the OP using the "them vs. reality" tactic. But I'm not convinced. No one disagrees that silicones are GREAT and have great applications, but for a AFRO-TEXTURED WOMAN WHO WANTS TO USE IT AS A CO-WASH it makes no sense.

You also offer no explanation for why someone would believe silicones caused them to go bald. Granted, we have no seen the video -- but if someone is making claims like that, how about putting that claim to bed if you believe its unfounded.


the question is not "are silicones bad?" the question is "ARE SILICONES APPROPRIATE FOR DAILY CO-WASHING?"


Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 12:46pm
I  am finished with this.  I have posted the scientific sources and information I wished to share. I am sure you will continue to criticize them for several more pages  of rants. LOL Please address the OP from here on. I have a life so I can not be sucked into this insignificant, never ending drama anymore LOL
Have fun ladies and enjoy yourselves

PS: I am not using any of the products in question currently I realized this is meaningless to me. I don't use conditioners with my hair in braids unfortunately and I have never used baking soda or vinegar. My last advice to the OP is try different things through trial and error  to find out works for you. I am starting to think it is best not to talk about what you like to use on your hair just as people avoid discussions of religion and politics. Apparently it is a heated issue and best kept to one's self.


Posted By: exceedinggrace
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I  am finished with this.  I have posted the scientific sources and information I wished share. I am sure you will continue to criticize them for several more pages  of rants.


You definitely didn't read anything she wrote.


Posted By: Physiqque
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 2:18pm
Lmao, I really liked this thread. What a lawyer we have here . But now that I can remember, before for quick stylin and leavin the gel behind,
I used to use Silicon mix on mi hair caked up daily. Then I noticed how dry mi hair was gettin. Currently, I'm in amidst of formulatin mi own hair treatment. It's always been mi dream to own mi salon and hair care line *cosmetologist*


Posted By: DEE80
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 6:58pm
I had no idea this thread would blow up like this. My goodness. LOL I was basically looking for a no or yes answer really and a little bit of information. LOL I'm thinking my hair is low porosity, but I can use some protein, like it has to be a light protein. I tried a heavy one and it messed my hair up. I still thank you ladies for all of your comments.


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by DEE80 DEE80 wrote:

I had no idea this thread would blow up like this. My goodness. LOL I was basically looking for a no or yes answer really and a little bit of information. LOL I'm thinking my hair is low porosity, but I can use some protein, like it has to be a light protein. I tried a heavy one and it messed my hair up. I still thank you ladies for all of your comments.


Lol. Yes, debate will happen on a touchy topic like this. Especially when the one you are debating purposely ignores logic and scientific fact. Sorry this ended in a sea of back and forth, but i couldn't let some of those misconstrued facts go about without correcting them.

Well i hope you find what works best for your hair. Listen to your own hair, and if you notice any issues you will be able to identify the cause based on your hair type and porosity. Hope i helped, and i hope people see this thread in the future will have some of their misconceptions clarified.


Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 7:04am
Originally posted by pinkecube pinkecube wrote:

...Especially when the one you are debating purposely ignores logic and scientific fact. Sorry this ended in a sea of back and forth, but i couldn't let some of those misconstrued facts go about without correcting them. 

I have tried to ignore your hostile insults and just stick to the facts pinkcube, I have presented only: 
1) Several articles by 2 legitimate recognized scientists on silicones stating they are good for the hair.
2) First hand documentations from individuals describing first hand how and why  baking soda and vinegar have destroyed their hair
3) Candid instructional video by a product manufacturer of hair goods
4) Now factual photos of silicone user's hair 

I will continue to ignore your hostility and continue to not stoop to your level of being insulting. I will continue to deal only with facts. You, however have used a street strategy of slinging  around insults,half truths  and taking many tacky cheap shots like the one above. I guess that is just the type of hostile person you are. And if you can not rely on facts you have to do something huh?
To give OP a REAL and FACTUAL view of what daily use of silicones can do to the hair I had to post the following images 
Prettywitty77 sprays silicone conditioner and water on her afro hair several times per week as her leave in moisturizer. As a matter of fact she uses Hello Hydration which pinkcube said contains many harmful silicones. Here are visual facts of how the silicones have " harmed " her hair.





Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 7:58am
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Originally posted by pinkecube pinkecube wrote:

...Especially when the one you are debating purposely ignores logic and scientific fact. Sorry this ended in a sea of back and forth, but i couldn't let some of those misconstrued facts go about without correcting them.

I have tried to ignore your hostile insults and just stick to the facts pinkcube, I have presented only information and sources for the most part and I will continue to do so and not stoop to your level of being insulting. You, however have slung around insults,half truths  and taken many tacky cheap shots like the one above. I guess that is just the type of hostile person you are.
To give OP a REAL and FACTUAL view of what daily use of silicones can do to the hair I had to post the following images 
Prettywitty77 sprays silicone conditioner and water on her afro hair several times per week as her moisturizer. As a matter of fact she uses Hello Hydration which pinkcube said contains many harmful silicones. Here are visual facts of how the silicones have " harmed " her hair.



You have been hostile, condesending, rude, and using insults and name calling from the beginning, unprovoked. Everything I have given is real and factual based on objective scientific facts, not your opinions. You are going to have to accept that i have already proved my side of the argument. where as you came in here from the beginning, ready to be hostile and everyone is able to see that in your comments.

Now, ignoring that hypocritcal statement, what are prettywitty's hair types. What is her hair porosity. What about the rest of her regimen? You never said weather she only cowashes or not. This directly effects how your hair respond to a product, and I've been saying this from the beginning.

Second do not purposely misquote what I said. Hello Hydration contains one silicone in the first 5 ingredients, I never said it contains many harmful silicones. I said depending on your hair type, constant use of silicones can dry out your hair over time, blocking what should be proper hydration in the hair. There is many a testimony to what i am saying. Check out curly kelz, who wears her type 4c curls in wash and gos. Checkout danabnatural, aketafitgirl. These youtubers will all testify bad experiences with silicones if you contact them.

I actually did extra research on that type of silicone is in the Op's conditioner last night, typed it up on word and came on here early to post it here before I saw your comment. I will paste it below:

Hi, Op, I wanted to give extra information about the type of silicone in your product. The type of silicone in Hello Hydration is Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone.

This silicone is a modified silicone, but it is not water soluble, and forms a cast over the hair. Now because this particular silicone is modified, it does not build up on the hair. But keep in mind it is still not water soluble, and also keep in mind that the more heavy handed you use this conditioner from the get go, the thicker the cast will be on your hair. Especially if your are using it as a leave in, do not be heavy handed with it. Now, There are only two things that can remove this type of silicone. Sodium Laureth Sulfate, and cocamidopropyl betaine.

cocamidopropyl betaine is a gentle cleansing agent. It will not entirely remove the residue, but depending on your combined hair types and how much you use maybe your hair will be able to deal with this. However, if you still notice dryness, that will let you know the residue is to much for your hair type. Do not mistake this however. cocamidopropyl betaine will never remove unmodified un water soluble silicone build up. Now some people may still have a sensitivity/allergy to this cleansing agent. It is derived from coconut and not everyone's hair likes coconut. That again, is purely up to your hair types and personal sensitivites. Only SLS can completely remove the silicone build up. Whether you want to completely remove it depends entirely on your hair type.


http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/alternatives-to-sulfate-shampoos.html

"cocamidopropyl betaine is just milder (Journal of Surfactants and Detergents, pp 235-239, 1998) leaving some of the oil layer undisturbed (not necessarily a bad thing for dry hair) and not necessarily removing all build up."

"If you have a look at the chemical structures above, you may notice that the long zig zag portion of the SLS is shorter than that of the cocamidopropyl betaine. This little zig zag portion is the tail part of the surfactant (orange in the diagram below). A shorter tail allows the micelle to form easily while a longer tail, not so much!


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GkQ08Dsvo30/SuW3HpbVRaI/AAAAAAAAATY/ThTNb7_rd3g/s1600/sls.png" rel="nofollow">

Therefore since cocamidopropyl betaine is not as effective at forming micelles, it is therefore not as effective at dissolving oil and therefore not a particularly strong cleanser. "

http://www.pinksith.com/2013/05/silicones-in-hair-care-what-you-need-to.html
"You know how I talked about long term use causing damage to some types of hair, well this is where I explain why.  Non-soluble silicones require the help of sulfate shampoos and cleansers in order to remove the silicone coating from the hair.   This may seem meaningless to some, however if you are trying to retain moisture in your hair then you may want to refrain from using non-soluble silicone products.  Why?  Well, in addition from having to use drying sulfate based cleansers, the silicone coating on the hair prevents moisture, protein, or other products from penetrating the hair shaft.   Additionally, when an overload of silicone products are applied to hair, the buildup from the silicone coating eventually causes breakage(If your hair is already dry or prone to breakage)"


http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-amodimethicone-and-other-amine-functionalized-silicones/


"The short answer is that these polymers are not water soluble. The silicone is provided to product manufacturers as a mixture of silicone/cationic surfactant/nonionic surfactant, which enables it to be readily dispersed into an aqueous formulation because this mixture is water soluble. However, once the product is used and the amodimethicone is deposited onto the surface of the hair and forms a film, it is not water soluble."

"These modified silicones seem to be of particular benefit for those of us with damaged hair, permanently colored hair or those concerned about the buildup of conditioning agents. It would be necessary to use a shampoo containing one of the lauryl or laureth sulfates or cocamidopropyl betaine to completely remove this silicone from the hair, which may be of concern to those who prefer to use only conditioner-cleansing methods."


Maybe the mild shampoo you are using contains cocamidopropyl betaine. But co-washing alone would never be enough to completely get off the residue.




Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 8:16am
I am very sorry you felt I was insulting pink cube. Please forgive the heated exchange. The fact is you think I am insulting and I think the same thing about you. I am willing to call it quits if you are. I get the feeling that you can not stop slinging insults though and move on.

PS I very much agree with the last source you posted stating that silicones  can be very beneficial to certain hairs.


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 8:34am
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I am very sorry you felt I was insulting pink cube. Please forgive the heated exchange. The fact is you think I am insulting and I think the same thing about you. I am willing to call it quits if you are. I get the feeling that you can not stop slinging insults though and move on.

PS I very much agree with the last source you posted stating that silicones  can be very beneficial to certain hair(types, but definitely not for all of them.)


btw I bolded my edition of what should've been said, so as to not be too vague about what I am saying. It seems like you are then admitting that I have been correct all along, since this is what i have been saying from the very beginning.

I will always come back and point out whether you misquote me, and I will point out your conduct in your replies to me as long as you keep replying.

 I can't simply allow someone to misquote what i am saying and try to play word games with it, and I will point out that conduct, because I don't want my message misconstrued.

 Never have i directly insulted you as a person, name calling and giving half quotes or completely misquoting, being purposely vague, and lying. You have done that throughout this debate, and I pointed it out. I never implied that you have no life, never called you a cultic fanatic, brush over relevant objective scientific facts, or twist facts, and didn't misrepresent any of the quotes you made. You have done that repeatedly. Like i said, in the last post we had a heated discussion together. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I am trying to insult you as a person. It would mar my message and is irrelevant to the points I am trying to make. Now once you start trying to prove your side by getting personal, that's open game to point out what you are doing.




Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 8:51am
Originally posted by pinkecube pinkecube wrote:


I will always come back and point out whether you misquote me, and I will point out your conduct in your replies to me as long as you keep replying.

 



That is where we differ. I did not bother  to mention most of the incidents where you misquoted me or twisted what I was saying because I find it far too exhausting and would have distracted from the message I was trying to deliver.  
Anyways, best wishes and cheers. Enjoy your day and happy hair journey.


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 9:02am
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Originally posted by pinkecube pinkecube wrote:


I will always come back and point out whether you misquote me, and I will point out your conduct in your replies to me as long as you keep replying.

 



That is where we differ. I did not bother  to mention most of the incidents where you misquoted me or twisted what I was saying because I find it far too exhausting and would have distracted from the message I was trying to deliver.  
Anyways, best wishes and cheers. Enjoy your day and happy hair journey.


There were no misquotes. There isn't a place where I have twisted what you said. I know this because I read every last bit of what you said in every post. What I directly quoted from you, I pasted directly from your posts. Even another user who read through this debate pointed out there were no misquotes when you tried to accuse me of it. And when you did accuse me of misquoting, and giving half truths i I directly addressed the issue and took my time to prove what i was saying was not a misquote. I elaborated on what i said and posted even more sources that proved what I was saying was correct. You want to turn me into some kind of cult fanatic who didn't support what I was saying. But I have supported everything I have said, and several people can attest to that.

You too, have a great day and hair journey. I think it's time we end this back and forth, because I have nothing to say unless you try to accuse me of something I didn't do. Then in which case, I will always have something to say. We all know this by now.


Posted By: LadyAradia
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 9:42am
OK I will only share the first two incidents where you implied I said things that I did not.  I really do not feel like going through all these pages.


Pink cube: What you are doing is ignoring evidence that shows silicones do build up on the hair, viewing silicones as some kind of holy grail

1) I am not ignoring that they build up rather I stated I think I view it as a GOOD thing that they build up to offer weight for puffy hair
2) Your stating I view silicones as a holy grail was a ridiculous mockery. Just because I do not view them as necessarily bad does not imply I view them as a holy grail. That was a blatant exaggeration to the point of mockery.


Lady Aradia:"Hair dryness is more an issue of lack of lipids or natural fatty, moist substances in the strand.  This is addressed in one of the articles below. So water or hydration alone is not going to make your hair feel less dry. In fact as the hair dries from water alone, it will take with it a lot of natural oils also evaporating from the strand leaving the hair DRYER."

Pink cube:I never said anything to combat this. But sealing in with a silicone conditioner or oil alone wouldn't be enough to hold water on the hair. Water is what actually moisturizes the hair. If you only used oils either, your hair would not be moisturized. Oils are lubricants and sealants. They alone do not moisturize the hair, period.

I never said oil alone moisturized. What I said to be exact was 
" So in order to fix dryness, you need to add emulsions of water with oils to the strand that can replicate natural lipids...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gkDoMNz8RQ"
 So again you exaggerated what I said to seem as if oil alone was going to moisturize. This is making a mockery of my point by omission of part of the statement. 


I could go on and it gets much worse as I continue. But I will not because I have some things to do today. I am not implying that you do not. I am just explaining why I can not continue with this. Suffice it to say, I feel that you intentionally mangled my message by exaggeration to a point of mockery in those two small incidents (just to start). All these subtle attacks build up to try to pick away at someone's message and try to undermine it. 

Instead of going on to show you the rest of them, I will just say I forgive you and again apologize for my part in the matter. 
Happy Hair Journey and best wishes.


Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 10:00am
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Pink cube: What you are doing is ignoring evidence that shows silicones do build up on the hair, viewing silicones as some kind of holy grail

1) I am not ignoring that they build up rather I stated I think I view it as a GOOD thing that they build up to offer weight for puffy hair


That is your view/ opinion and you are presenting it as a fact, when it is not. When I presented my (scientifically supported) advice to the OP, you said I was spreading "bullcrap" and called me a "cult fanatic". No scientists, even the ones you sourced said anything that proved my advice was as unreasonable as you exaggeratedly claimed. No scientists, are specifically saying weighed down hair is a good thing for "puffy" hair, or any hair. You are saying it. What do you mean by puffy hair anyway. Frizzy hair? What african american hair types? All of them? You never proved silicones were good for all african american hair types, or were being specific about hair types at all.  I have shown evidence that certain hair types would not respond well to the way silicones behave on the hair. You even acknowleged I was correct. There are many testimonies you can look up that support this, and they aren't tales or "fables" or "balogna".

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

No that is all balogna & cowashing only is fine. I see no point in ever stripping the treatment off of the strands since I will only put some more right back on the hair the instant I finish rinsing out the cleanser.


Someone's personal experience with their hair isn't something you can just offhandely call bologna, just because it doesn't fall in line with your opinions.


In the video, this youtuber with low porosity type 4 hair states that if she doesn't shampoo her hair at least once every 2 weeks with a sulfate shampoo, she gets scabs on her scalp. She also uses any old drugstore conditioner she feels like, and that she "doesn't mind" using silicones.  Cowashing isn't enough for her, or she gets scabs and excessive build up. The why is still a mystery to her, because she actively uses drugstore conditioners without taking care to research the ingredients. But to you, that is "all balogna" and a "false tale".

And I have also proven that cowashing only is not always fine for certain hair types, that do not benefit from that cast being left on, especially if you are using silicones. You have already acknowledged your agreement to this in your most recent posts:



Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

PS I very much agree with the last source you posted stating that silicones  can be very beneficial to certain hairs.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

2) Your stating I view silicones as a holy grail was a ridiculous mockery. Just because I do not view them as necessarily bad does not imply I view them as a holy grail. That was a blatant exaggeration to the point of mockery.


You have previously indicated that you view silicones as a holy grail. A metaphor that was in no way an exaggeration in the context, since you kept implying silicones were good for all african american hair, unequivocally.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

African Americans can benefit from silicones just as we benefit from oils. ignore the cult fanatics who spread this bull crap.



btw, falsely accusing me of being a cult fanatic who spreads around bull crap is much more insulting than what I said. also, you didn't acknowledge the rest of what I said, being another sign of your hypocritical attempts to grasp at straws. You are once again falsely accusing me of doing something I did not do, only for me to reveal that is exactly what you are attempting to do to me, which is hypocritical conduct.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

you can not reason with fearmongerers. They fabricate tales of doom and gloom based on non proven hypothesis


calling me a "fearmongerer" saying I was "fabricating tales of doom and gloom"
Another example of your straw grasps and hypocrisy in this post, as none of the evidence you showed directly conflicted w/ what I was saying. You then proceeded to spread misinformation based on your own fear mongering, self fabricated tales of gloom and doom in regards to bakingsoda and acv rinse mixture that I suggested-- telling people to be afraid of bakingsoda and apple cider vinegar based on completely fabricated and confabulated "facts" and baseless assumptions, that directly conflict with many scientific evidences. All while trying to represent yourself as a curly hair expert. See quote below:

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Furthermore, adding drying agents like vinegar and baking soda will eat out even more of the few lipids (fats) the strands have and leave the hair dryer. It may feel softer when it is wet because you have dissolved some of the keratin similar to the way a relaxer dissolves some of the keratin and cuticle. This is why some naturals notice a smoother curl pattern after baking soda.They've swollen the strands as much as a relaxer with the baking soda which causes destruction of some of the disulfide bonds that form kinks and curl patterns. This is the same thing that relaxers do to the hair, swell the strand and cause the disulfide curl bonds to break.. (You've essentially eroded  some of the strand off and zapped out its natural oils. That is why it will feel dryer when it dries after zapping the hair with corrosive vinegar and baking soda.


Bakingsoda and apple cider vinegar, not white vinegar. They are not corrosive, as scientist have already said, phs of 4-9 do not significantly effect the hair shaft. Hair protein has a natural resistance to ph changes. The only thing that range of ph's can do is lift the hair cuticle, and gently cleanse build up off the hair. Did you know bentonite clay has a ph of 9? Are you now going to proceed to argue bentonite clay dissolves the hair like a relaxer?

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/investigation-does-ph-affect-your-hair.html

"There are two authoritative studies on this with pretty similar results. There is very little change to hair structure between the pH ranges of 4 to 9. Hair protein resists changes due to acid or base. Tests were performed using hydrochloric acid (powerful acid) and sodium hydroxide (a strong base)."

" Hair does not absorb noticeable amounts of acid or base between pH 4-10" ( J Soc Cosmet Chem, pp 393-405, 1981)
"The cuticle separation distance is within the same range between pH 4 -9" (J Invest Dermatol 105: pp96-99, 1995)


Oh, and just in case you try fault me that accusing you of being a hypocrite and grasping at straws is another "baseless" and "personal" or "exaggerated" insult:

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasp+at+straws
clutch/grasp at straws
 
1. to try any method, even those that are not likely to succeed, because you are in such a bad situation (usually in continuous tenses)

Originally posted by Pinkecube Pinkecube wrote:

what you are doing is ignoring evidence that shows silicones do build up on the hair, viewing silicones as some kind of holy grail, and if someone has a problem with silicones it's all boloney.


I saw that and pointed it out. You have repeatedly implied throughout your past posts silicones are good for all african american hair. when i continued to say silicones were not good for everyone's hair, you continued to try and refute what i was saying, claiming I was using psuedo science and lies, drawing false hypothesis. But I wasn't and you have only recently in your post corrected yourself, showing you didn't actually want to admit what I was saying was correct until it became painfully obvious. here are some quotes of that below:



Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Silicone is one the BEST emollients for hair and skin known to man. Silicones are oily, emollient substances.


By the way silicones are not oils. Silicones are polymers that include silicon together with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and sometimes other elements. They plasticize the hair. The is a difference between silicone oil and plain silicones.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I see this same bull crap with vegans and vegetarians. They spread fear telling people they will drop dead on the spot if they eat a drop of meat.


you are creating an analogy that in no way applied to what i was saying, grossly exaggerating the points I was trying to make as if they were on this level of extremity. That is a real example of mockery. And there are more below.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

They are actually scientists with degrees.  You are a spreading pseudo "science" based on nothing except your own inflated ego.


that is a personal insult, and a false accusation that it isn't based on science, already proven to we incorrect, and you have proceeded to admit you were incorrect in you recent post.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

PS: Get over yourself and stop trying to make this all about you.  HA who are you?. This is not about you pink and you are nothing to me to discredit or otherwise.  This is about the OP wanting opinions on a product. 

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Let them pay outrageous prices. They are sheep and they are falling right in line  with the campaigns being waged against their wallet. Let them. It's their own fault if they fall for it when we are telling them what is going on.


I guess $4, $5, and $3 is an outrageous price in your book. Enough to call us "sheep", since we don't agree with you opinion. When I proceeded to point that out, when you purposely twisted information, I was told to "get over" myself.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:


Lady Aradia:"Hair dryness is more an issue of lack of lipids or natural fatty, moist substances in the strand.  This is addressed in one of the articles below. So water or hydration alone is not going to make your hair feel less dry. In fact as the hair dries from water alone, it will take with it a lot of natural oils also evaporating from the strand leaving the hair DRYER."

Pink cube:I never said anything to combat this. But sealing in with a silicone conditioner or oil alone wouldn't be enough to hold water on the hair. Water is what actually moisturizes the hair. If you only used oils either, your hair would not be moisturized. Oils are lubricants and sealants. They alone do not moisturize the hair, period.

Lady Aradia: I never said oil alone moisturized. What I said to be exact was 
" So in order to fix dryness, you need to add emulsions of water with oils to the strand that can replicate natural lipids...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gkDoMNz8RQ"
 So again you exaggerated what I said to seem as if oil alone was going to moisturize. This is making a mockery of my point by omission of part of the statement.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Hair dryness is more an issue of lack of lipids or natural fatty, moist substances in the strand.


 
That above is the quote that was also addressed in my statement, so there is Not an exaggeration or misquote or relevant omission in any way.  i then proceeded to say that on this level we are saying the same thing. Your wording was intentionally meant to deceive people that emollients are moisturizing, aka "moist substances". That is what you said to be exact. We were saying the same thing about the function of emollients, but you still proceeded to add that. I corrected you that emollients are only moisturizing agents. The only moisturizer, or moist substances, are water, and water based substances. Lipids and fatty acids are oils. Even hair sebum is an oil, and fatty acid, and emollient. You are just rearranging your wording, but in the end it means the same thing, and I was not out of context to correct that statement. I corrected you and said they were moisturizing agents. directly
quoting it from you, and addressing that part of the quote. I also didn't omit the other quote.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

"So water or hydration alone is not going to make your hair feel less dry."


That is the quote I used, and it is delivering the same exact message as this quote below you are saying i omitted.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

So in order to fix dryness, you need to add emulsions of water with oils to the strand that can replicate natural lipids


You continued to act like i said anywhere at all that sealing in moisture wasn't an important part of keeping hair hydrated. You now recently admit that we were saying the same thing on that level, but in that previous post you still felt the need to point it out, and even imply that emollients are moist substances in the hair strand. That was the only conflict i saw in the statement, so i corrected it. It wasn't mockery at all, and your wording is deceitful and completely diverting away from what i said.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I could go on and it gets much worse as I continue. But I will not because I have some things to do today. I am not implying that you do not. I am just explaining why I can not continue with this. Suffice it to say, I feel that you intentionally mangled my message by exaggeration to a point of mockery in those two small incidents (just to start). All these subtle attacks build up to try to pick away at someone's message and try to undermine it.


Please do go on and on when you find the time. You simply can't find anywhere where I get worse and worse. And people who read this are supposed to just take your word for it? What you need to do is either find more of these direct quotes or let them read this post themselves. Since you directly quoted me, I have directly quoted some of your statements, which had gotten increasingly rude throughout the post and actually included them here.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

But I will not because I have some things to do today. I am not implying that you do not.


V.S.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

LOL Please address the OP from here on. I have a life so I can not be sucked into this insignificant, never ending drama anymore


You have previously implied it though. It isn't unreasonable, when you word it the way you previously worded it, to take some offense, but I'll just take your word for that, that it wasn't intentional, back handed insult.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I  am finished with this.  I have posted the scientific sources and information I wished to share. I am sure you will continue to criticize them for several more pages  of rants.

"rant

verb \ˈrant\

: to talk loudly and in a way that shows anger : to complain in a way that is unreasonable"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rant

All the scientific sources you posted were directly addressed in my "rants". None of them were in direct confliction to what I was saying, and i used many of them to directly prove the point i was trying to make. The unnecessary longwinded explantations in this post are a direct result of you repeatedly ignoring those facts, not reading my arguments, and then purposely misconstruing all the points I made. If you had simply admitted from the beginning that your disagreements with what i was saying were baseless, there would be no reason for me to repeatedly post this much evidence in my favor.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I am not using any of the products in question currently I realized this is meaningless to me. I don't use conditioners with my hair in braids unfortunately and I have never used baking soda or vinegar.


You, basically admitting you are not qualified to argue the particular topics I proved during this discussion.

 Have a good day, and nothing I posted here is personal. I just am very strict and can't allow my factual messages to be twisted around and misconstrued by straw grasping rebuttals and half truths. You may continue your baseless arguments if you may, and I will address them once again if I have to. But for now, I am done. Thank you and have a good day.



Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 4:21pm
By the way, if any of you notice dryness from using coconut oil, which many people claim their hair doesn't like because it, "acts like a protein in their hair", this may be relevant information for you.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/29/are-silicones-bad-for-your-hair/
coconut oil: "What about carrier oils, as you describe them? Some oils are effective conditioners. Take coconut oil, for example. While it doesn`t provide the same surface smoothing as silicones, it has been shown to penetrate hair and plasticize the cortex, making hair stronger. (This isn’t true of all natural oils however.)"

silicones: "Even if you did block your hair from absorbing moisture, the silicone would act like a moisturizing agent because it would plasticize and lubricate your hair. " (note moisturizing agents need to work in conjunction with water, the only true moisturizing substance or hydrator, and if allowed to build up on hair they can work against ideal moisture absorption.)

Coconut oil penetrates hair and plasticizes the cortex. this is the main difference between coconut oil and other oils, so if you find your individual hair isn't compatible with this oil, this is the reason, it is not random.



Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 30 2014 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by pinkecube pinkecube wrote:

By the way, if any of you notice dryness from using coconut oil, which many people claim their hair doesn't like because it, "acts like a protein in their hair", this may be relevant information for you.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/29/are-silicones-bad-for-your-hair/
coconut oil: "What about carrier oils, as you describe them? Some oils are effective conditioners. Take coconut oil, for example. While it doesn`t provide the same surface smoothing as silicones, it has been shown to penetrate hair and plasticize the cortex, making hair stronger. (This isn’t true of all natural oils however.)"

silicones: "Even if you did block your hair from absorbing moisture, the silicone would act like a moisturizing agent because it would plasticize and lubricate your hair. " (note moisturizing agents need to work in conjunction with water, the only true moisturizing substance or hydrator, and if allowed to build up on hair they can work against ideal moisture absorption.)

Coconut oil penetrates hair and plasticizes the cortex. this is the main difference between coconut oil and other oils, so if you find your individual hair isn't compatible with this oil, this is the reason, it is not random.


 Coconut oil not only plasticizes the cortex, but is an amino alcohol. It is not a fatty alcohol.

"Ethanolamine is an organic compound that is naturally found in coconut oil and is a primary amine and primary alcohol"
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/6884068" rel="nofollow - http://EzineArticles.com/6884068


http://www.futurederm.com/2012/04/19/is-ethanol-in-skin-care-products-safe/" rel="nofollow - http://www.futurederm.com/2012/04/19/is-ethanol-in-skin-care-products-safe/

"As I explained last week in http://www.futurederm.com/2012/04/12/the-5-most-common-skin-care-mistakes-%20even-experts-make/" rel="nofollow - The 5 Most Common Mistakes Even Skin Experts Make , it is well-established that ethanol can reduce water content via a form of water loss known as transepidermal water loss (TEWL) (1), lipid content via extraction and dissolution (2), and protein content via denaturation (3). These properties allow for ethanol to be an effective (and drying) penetration enhancer."

"Ethanol in itself isn’t harmful. It’s the drying effect that can lead to other problems."



http://EzineArticles.com/6884068" rel="nofollow -



Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 30 2014 at 7:40pm
http://www.terressentials.com/hairhelp.html#chemhair" rel="nofollow - http://www.terressentials.com/hairhelp.html#chemhair

“Chemical hair treatments permanently alter the outer layer of the hair shaft creating a porous cuticle – under a microscope chemically treated hair looks like Swiss cheese. Once hair is damaged by chemical colorings, perms or straightening chemicals, people are sold a myriad of synthetic products that artificially coat the hair with plastic or protein polymers to make it look and feel undamaged. The more damaged the hair, the more porous it becomes; the more porous the hair, the more it absorbs these synthetic “protein” polymers (e.g. soy, wheat or oat proteins – that are NOT edible foods), plastic polymers such as PVP (petrochemical polyvinyl pyrrolidone) and gum coating agents. These are the substances the “mud” removes in the detox protocol, but the detox process takes time."

thought i'd add that to additionally hit on some perspective on silicones, not that it should even be needed at this point, but I am doing it anyway.


Posted By: femmemuscleisback
Date Posted: Mar 30 2014 at 9:23pm
would you ladies please pm your bickering..

this "debating" is  convoluting very basic information.

From an outsider's perspective, it's almost like watching two guys showing "Who has the bigger d**ck"..

i'm not a debater, and to be honest i think debating is a waste of time.

If someone starts a  thread, and you disagree, just state your opinion and keep it moving.

If you still feel you have a burning desire to prove your point, then make your own gawd damn thread.

What we are witnessing is good intel turned into Bad Shakespeare..

just stop it already.. it's not a good look for either of you.






Posted By: pinkecube
Date Posted: Mar 30 2014 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by femmemuscleisback femmemuscleisback wrote:

would you ladies please pm your bickering..

this "debating" is  convoluting very basic information.

From an outsider's perspective, it's almost like watching two guys showing "Who has the bigger d**ck"..

i'm not a debater, and to be honest i think debating is a waste of time.

If someone starts a  thread, and you disagree, just state your opinion and keep it moving.

If you still feel you have a burning desire to prove your point, then make your own gawd damn thread.

What we are witnessing is good intel turned into Bad Shakespeare..

just stop it already.. it's not a good look for either of you.



You are right. I will put it in my thread, then. I have almost finished a more organized faq that gets straight to the point of why silicones are incompatible for some hair types, with several objective scientific sources that support the information. Nothing i said was convoluted. There are several people including another cosmetologies(besides Lady aradia) that attested what i was sayinb was true. It will be posted on it's own blog webpage, along with information about other ingredients, and soon on its very own website, and I will make a link to it in my own thread, "the max hydration method". 

I really think it was important to directly quote her and address each issue as it was a huge part in developing many of the points made at the time. The discussion is over however. I will no longer be replying to this thread, as i have thoroughly proved my point, and the Op has shown to have appreciated what i said, along with many others. I knew that many people in the future are very likely to see this thread, and so I wanted to properly address each point so they wouldn't be left hanging with misconstrued, convoluted information.


Posted By: sexyandfamous
Date Posted: Mar 31 2014 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:


Prettywitty77 sprays silicone conditioner and water on her afro hair several times per week as her leave in moisturizer. As a matter of fact she uses Hello Hydration which pinkcube said contains many harmful silicones. Here are visual facts of how the silicones have " harmed " her hair.






pretty hair... do you know what she did to grow her hair?

eta: found her instagram and youtube.. will check it out


Posted By: kwicherbichen
Date Posted: Apr 02 2014 at 11:27am
@sexyandfamous

SHE IS NOT CO-WASHING. Are silicones appropriate for CO-WASHING, not for regular usage -- not for regular usage as suggested ON THE BOTTLE. For COWASHING. It is not. I'm not even going to talk about her hair type (given that it can withstand relaxers. Can YOUR hair withstand relaxers?)... not even going to touch on that. That's how simple and clear cut this is. 

Why is this so confusing? 


Posted By: femmemuscleisback
Date Posted: Apr 07 2014 at 10:40am
Originally posted by kwicherbichen kwicherbichen wrote:

@sexyandfamous

SHE IS NOT CO-WASHING. Are silicones appropriate for CO-WASHING, not for regular usage -- not for regular usage as suggested ON THE BOTTLE. For COWASHING. It is not. I'm not even going to talk about her hair type (given that it can withstand relaxers. Can YOUR hair withstand relaxers?)... not even going to touch on that. That's how simple and clear cut this is. 

Why is this so confusing? 


Let's just put it out there, it's confusing because Lady Aradia keeps jumping in on threads whenever Pink Cube posts.  If anyone has seen a pic of her (saints preserve us).. well, she's not a 4 hair type.  Yet, so quick to tell others who's hair type she obviously not, nor have personally experienced on her very own head. She has hair but it's certainly not 4b.  This is why she's posting these confusing instagram pics and videos.

We have had 100's of people come on the forum with a "cosmetology license" who basically had to pack it up and leave due to their inability to learn yet "go in hard" on certain members with amazing  arrogance, condescending, and many times irrelevant preaching.

I don't mind sharing of information, but i find it to the point of being soporific when Lady Aradia will jump on a thread, argue, rant, contradict herself, show her well-fed behind - then when challenged, turn around and state: "i'm not posting here any more", "i'm sick of having to post" "I have a cosmetology license" "I'm done" so forth and so on.  Then true to form, come right back and start fresh.  If you're sick of posting your information - then for gawd sake stop posting. You're actually doing us a favor, seriously.  Fall off the planet for christ-sake..

The last condescending sarcastic remark i glanced at was something paraphrased: "I have things to do, obviously you don't" something to that effect.. Yep, Lady Aradia,  true to form.

Well, if you had something to do in the first place, why do you take time to come into a thread - and go in hard after certain members?

Thus, Kwicher, this is the reason why simple information is getting confused.  A certain individual keeps jumping into threads with an inflated ego, versus an open mind.

thank you and goodnight.







Posted By: femmemuscleisback
Date Posted: Apr 07 2014 at 10:42am
true to form, she'll come in on that broom of hers and start shooting off at the mouth.. if she hasn't been "shut down" already..





Print Page | Close Window