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Half of female Marines fail new fitness test

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Topic: Half of female Marines fail new fitness test
Posted By: liesnalibis
Subject: Half of female Marines fail new fitness test
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 3:33am
Yeesh...

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2014/01/marines_delay_female_fitness_p.html#incart_flyout_news" rel="nofollow - http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2014/01/marines_delay_female_fitness_p.html#incart_flyout_news


Marines delay female fitness plan after half fail

Women in Combat
FILE - This Feb. 21, 2013 file photo shows female recruits at the Marine Corps Training Depot on Parris Island, S.C. More than half of female Marines in boot camp can't do three pull-ups, the minimum standard that was supposed to take effect with the new year. So the Corps is delaying the requirement. All the service branches are working on devising standards, training and other policies needed to open thousands of combat roles to women in 2016. (AP Photo/Bruce Smith, File)
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http://connect.nola.com/user/nolaap/index.html" rel="nofollow">The Associated Press By  http://connect.nola.com/user/nolaap/posts.html" rel="nofollow - The Associated Press 
on January 03, 2014 at 12:21 AM, updated January 03, 2014 at 12:24 AM
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WASHINGTON -- More than half of female Marines in boot camp can't do three pullups, the minimum standard that was supposed to take effect with the new year, prompting the Marine Corps to delay the requirement, part of the process of equalizing physical standards to integrate women into combat jobs.

The delay rekindled sharp debate in the military on the question of whether women have the physical strength for some military jobs, as service branches move toward opening thousands of combat roles to them in 2016.

Although no new timetable has been set on the delayed physical requirement, Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos wants training officials to "continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed," Capt. Maureen Krebs, a Marine spokeswoman, said Thursday.

Starting with the new year, all female Marines were supposed to be able to do at least three pullups on their annual physical fitness test and eight for a perfect score. The requirement was tested in 2013 on female recruits at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, S.C., but only 45 percent of women met the minimum, Krebs said.

The Marines had hoped to institute the pullups on the belief that pullups require the muscular strength necessary to perform common military tasks such as scaling a wall, climbing up a rope or lifting and carrying heavy munitions.

Officials felt there wasn't a medical risk to putting the new standard into effect as planned across the service, but that the risk of losing recruits and hurting retention of women already in the service was unacceptably high, she said.

Because the change is being put off, women will be able to choose which test of upper-body strength they will be graded on in their annual physical fitness test. Their choices:

--Pullups, with three the minimum. Three is also the minimum for male Marines, but they need 20 for a perfect rating.

--A flexed-arm hang. The minimum is for 15 seconds; women get a perfect score if they last for 70 seconds. Men don't do the hang in their test.

Officials said training for pullups can change a person's strength, while training for the flex-arm hang does little to adapt muscular strength needed for military tasks

The delay on the standard could be another wrinkle in the plan to begin allowing women to serve in jobs previously closed to them such as infantry, armor and artillery units.

The decision to suspend the scheduled pull-up requirement "is a clear indication" that plans to move women into direct ground combat fighting teams will not work, said Elaine Donnelly, president of the conservative Center for Military Readiness and a critic of allowing women into infantry jobs.

"When officials claim that men and women are being trained the same, they are referring to bare minimums, not maximum qualifications that most men can meet but women cannot," Donnelly wrote in an email to The Associated Press. "Awarding gender-normed scores so that women can succeed lowers standards for all. Women will suffer more injuries and resentment they do not deserve, and men will be less prepared for the demands of direct ground combat."

The military services are working to figure out how to move women into newly opened jobs and have been devising updated physical standards, training, education and other programs for thousands of jobs they must open Jan. 1, 2016, said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Nathan Christensen, a Defense Department spokesman. They must open as many jobs to women as possible; if they decide to keep some closed, they must explain why.

Military brass has said repeatedly that physical standards won't be lowered to accommodate female applicants. Success for women in training for the upcoming openings has come in fits and starts.

In fall 2012, only two female Marines volunteered for the 13-week infantry officers training course at Quantico, Va., and both failed to complete it.

But the following fall, three Marines became the first women to graduate from the Corps' enlisted infantry training school in North Carolina. They completed the same test standards as the men in the course, which included a 12-mile march with an 80-pound pack and various combat fitness trials such as timed ammunition container lifts and tests that simulate running under combat fire.

Officials had added specific training for female recruits when the pullup requirement was announced in December 2012, and they came up with a workout program for women already serving.

Military testing for physical skill and stamina has changed over the decades with needs of the armed forces. Officials say the first recorded history of Marine Corps physical fitness tests, for example, was 1908 when President Theodore Roosevelt ordered that staff officers must ride horseback 90 miles and line officers walk 50 miles over a three-day period to pass. A test started in 1956 included chinups, pushups, broad jump, 50-yard duck waddle and running.

The first test for women was started in 1969: A 120-yard shuttle run, vertical jump, knee pushups, 600-yard run/walk and situps.




Replies:
Posted By: Sang Froid
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 4:16am
I really don't understand women wanting combat jobs.



Posted By: newdiva1
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 4:39am
welp....be in it to win it.  get your game up.  these tests need to be equal.  if a man is required to do 20 pull up then it needs to be the same for women.


Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 4:48am
Originally posted by newdiva1 newdiva1 wrote:

welp....be in it to win it.  get your game up.  these tests need to be equal.  if a man is required to do 20 pull up then it needs to be the same for women.

Meh...I disagree. The point should be not only to meet a certain standard, but also to challenge yourself. A man shouldn't just get off with doing three pull ups if it's nothing for him to do while a woman is struggling to do them. If they want Marines to be able to do a minimum of three pull ups, fine, but then men should do six. It just doesn't make sense for them to have the same requirements seeing as one gender is intrinsically more capable. Endeavor to the best of your ability. All my opinion of course.


Posted By: jonesable
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 4:49am
Physically men and women are just different.


Posted By: jonesable
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 4:51am
If a woman wants to be in combat cool but I don't know how this plays into effectiveness in combat if we have to grade her on a curve.


Posted By: newdiva1
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 5:15am
Originally posted by jonesable jonesable wrote:

If a woman wants to be in combat cool but I don't know how this plays into effectiveness in combat if we have to grade her on a curve.




this is my point.  if you're going into combat...u need to be strong period.  yeah men are naturally stronger but I see no reason that being a marine u only doing ...not even 3 pull ups?  I thought marines were supposed to be bad ass?


Posted By: femmemichelle
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 5:57am
Originally posted by liesnalibis liesnalibis wrote:

Originally posted by newdiva1 newdiva1 wrote:

welp....be in it to win it.  get your game up.  these tests need to be equal.  if a man is required to do 20 pull up then it needs to be the same for women.

Meh...I disagree. The point should be not only to meet a certain standard, but also to challenge yourself. A man shouldn't just get off with doing three pull ups if it's nothing for him to do while a woman is struggling to do them. If they want Marines to be able to do a minimum of three pull ups, fine, but then men should do six. It just doesn't make sense for them to have the same requirements seeing as one gender is intrinsically more capable. Endeavor to the best of your ability. All my opinion of course.

Huh? You don't think men and women should have to meet the same requirements if they want to do the same job? I could understand your point if these women were engaging in less strenuous combat, but they're not. 




Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 6:11am
Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

Originally posted by liesnalibis liesnalibis wrote:

Originally posted by newdiva1 newdiva1 wrote:

welp....be in it to win it.  get your game up.  these tests need to be equal.  if a man is required to do 20 pull up then it needs to be the same for women.

Meh...I disagree. The point should be not only to meet a certain standard, but also to challenge yourself. A man shouldn't just get off with doing three pull ups if it's nothing for him to do while a woman is struggling to do them. If they want Marines to be able to do a minimum of three pull ups, fine, but then men should do six. It just doesn't make sense for them to have the same requirements seeing as one gender is intrinsically more capable. Endeavor to the best of your ability. All my opinion of course.

Huh? You don't think men and women should have to meet the same requirements if they want to do the same job? I could understand your point if these women were engaging in less strenuous combat, but they're not. 



No, I don't think so. I think there should be a minimum requirement for all Marines and then an additional one for men. The minimum is to be certain they can perform the job and the additional one for men is to be sure they are performing to the best of their abilities. 


Posted By: GG
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 6:35am
They're all going to be on the same front line so they ALL need to be on the same level physically. When their fellow soldiers are down they have to be carried...


Posted By: femmemichelle
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 6:39am
That doesn't make any sense and throws dirt in the faces of the 50% of female marines who were able to perform their duties correctly. If you can't perform at the same level as your comrades in a combat zone, you need not be there! Men will always have more physical prowess, but if 50% of women are at least performing at the basic level, then that speaks of  a problem for the 50% who need to buck up or find another day job.

Lowering physical job requirements to appease women helps bolster the claims of men who assert that women do not belong on the battle field. How is a female comrade to be respected if she can't even perform at the basic level, all while touting the same job? 0_0


Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 6:39am
Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

That doesn't make any sense and throws dirt in the faces of the 50% of female marines who were able to perform their duties correctly. If you can't perform at the same level as your comrades in a combat zone, you need not be there! Men will always have more physical prowess, but if 50% of women are at least performing at the basic level, then that speaks of  a problem for the 50% who need to buck up or find another day job.

Lowering physical job requirements to appease women helps bolster the claims of men who assert that women do not belong on the battle field. How is a female comrade to be respected if she can't even perform at the basic level, all while touting the same job? 0_0

Did I say anything about lowering existing requirements? I said men should have an additional requirement.


Posted By: ms_wonderland
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 7:19am
my sisters physical therapist is getting her prepared for the air force now.  She graduates h.s. in May.  She's very fit looking but not coordinated or athletic or used to strenuous anything since p.e. is not physical.  I support her but I wonder how she will get through basic training lol.


Posted By: SoutherNtellect
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 7:25am
Surprised at general consensus so far


Posted By: femmemichelle
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 8:06am
Originally posted by liesnalibis liesnalibis wrote:

Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

That doesn't make any sense and throws dirt in the faces of the 50% of female marines who were able to perform their duties correctly. If you can't perform at the same level as your comrades in a combat zone, you need not be there! Men will always have more physical prowess, but if 50% of women are at least performing at the basic level, then that speaks of  a problem for the 50% who need to buck up or find another day job.

Lowering physical job requirements to appease women helps bolster the claims of men who assert that women do not belong on the battle field. How is a female comrade to be respected if she can't even perform at the basic level, all while touting the same job? 0_0

Did I say anything about lowering existing requirements? I said men should have an additional requirement.

Why? That artillery and gunfire is indiscriminate. A bullet will not dodge a woman because she couldn't do 3 pull ups in favor of the man who could. 

And yes, you are insinuating that the bar be lowered by requiring men to have additional requirements. 

How would you feel in a workplace knowing that the people around you had to work harder for the job? You would be resented.


Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 8:33am
Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

Originally posted by liesnalibis liesnalibis wrote:

Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

That doesn't make any sense and throws dirt in the faces of the 50% of female marines who were able to perform their duties correctly. If you can't perform at the same level as your comrades in a combat zone, you need not be there! Men will always have more physical prowess, but if 50% of women are at least performing at the basic level, then that speaks of  a problem for the 50% who need to buck up or find another day job.

Lowering physical job requirements to appease women helps bolster the claims of men who assert that women do not belong on the battle field. How is a female comrade to be respected if she can't even perform at the basic level, all while touting the same job? 0_0

Did I say anything about lowering existing requirements? I said men should have an additional requirement.

Why? That artillery and gunfire is indiscriminate. A bullet will not dodge a woman because she couldn't do 3 pull ups in favor of the man who could. 

And yes, you are insinuating that the bar be lowered by requiring men to have additional requirements. 

How would you feel in a workplace knowing that the people around you had to work harder for the job? You would be resented.

I understand what you're saying and I could use a really goofy analogy to make my point, but I'll just say I disagree.


Posted By: Lite Brite
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 8:46am
Lies, give us the analogy, because I'm trying to understand your point, but I can't yet

While I'm cheering for the 3 girls who completed the corps training, the rest who can't meet the requirement need to find a different position, or keep trying. I've always felt this way about these types of jobs (fire fighters included). Sorry ladies


Posted By: AshBash89
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 8:46am
3 pull-ups is not a lot. I did 10 in a row at 16 when I was in high school. I'm pretty sure that I still hold that record. Anyway, military basic training is not that hard. The Marines probably have the hardest or close to it but even so, there is a problem if 50% of any group is failing. I haven't really read but men and women have different requirements, or at least that's how it used to be.


Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Lite Brite Lite Brite wrote:

Lies, give us the analogy, because I'm trying to understand your point, but I can't yet

While I'm cheering for the 3 girls who completed the corps training, the rest who can't meet the requirement need to find a different position, or keep trying. I've always felt this way about these types of jobs (fire fighters included). Sorry ladies

LoL you don't want it. LOL And the bolded is how I feel. If three pull ups is the minimum requirement for the job then everyone should be able to meet it. However, for a man to have the same physical strength requirements as a woman when women simply have less physical strength just isn't fair. If a man can only do the same amount of pull ups a woman can do then he deserves a side eye. If a woman is trying with all her might to get through those three pull ups then the men should be challenged just the same. They shouldn't be on the job doing the least they can do to get by. The military is supposed to be the best of the best. So yes I think the requirement for men should be higher than the requirement for women.


Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 8:52am
Originally posted by AshBash89 AshBash89 wrote:

3 pull-ups is not a lot. I did 10 in a row at 16 when I was in high school. I'm pretty sure that I still hold that record. Anyway, military basic training is not that hard. The Marines probably have the hardest or close to it but even so, there is a problem if 50% of any group is failing. I haven't really read but men and women have different requirements, or at least that's how it used to be.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's not. I wanted to put in the OP that it was embarrassing, but I didn't want to get snow balls thrown at me. But this thread is unfolding a little differently than I expected. 


Posted By: Printer_Ink
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 9:06am
Um my niece is in the Marines and she told me that they DO have different requirements for males and females in bootcamp.

It goes from the number of crunches to how far they have to run. Some of the requirements are the same .. but most of them are pared down for females so I don't know what this article is talkimg about.


Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Printer_Ink Printer_Ink wrote:

Um my niece is in the Marines and she told me that they DO have different requirements for males and females in bootcamp.

It goes from the number of crunches to how far they have to run. Some of the requirements are the same .. but most of them are pared down for females so I don't know what this article is talkimg about.

Did you read the article?


Posted By: blaquefoxx
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 10:05am
Originally posted by Sang Froid Sang Froid wrote:

I really don't understand women wanting combat jobs.

Especially the Marines smh. 


Posted By: AmiliaCabral
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 10:19am
not surprised, i went to a marine corp bootcamp and two women were rushed to the emergency room on the first day



Posted By: coconess
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 10:49am
didnt read much… 

but i don't think the standards should be the same for women… men are so different.. 
but i do think it should be challenging.. i don't think 3 pull ups is enough.. even if they're trained killers.. without the right conditioning they'll (probably) fail on the front lines during a fight.. 3 pull ups is not challenging enough. 
its like how you have to get all types of conditioning for boxing and krav maga (which they're taught) if you don't have the stamina and other tools that go with learning to defend yourself.. you'll fall way short. 
they should have to do more like 10 pull ups.. 


Posted By: eanaj5
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 11:03am
forgive my ignorance, but is this not what bootcamp is for? To get you ready for the test?
So who slacked off in bootcamp to where they cant do 3 pullups?
Everything should be the same. Combat is indiscriminate. Like someone else said, if u cant make it, find another day job


Posted By: creole booty
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 11:03am
Right?! My new-to-fitness ass can do 3 measly pull ups (and the monkey bars FINALLY!)


Posted By: Rumbera
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 11:06am
Real talk, I think that physical challenges are not that demanding.
 
I mean I can do two pull ups at the moment with no bootcamp training.


Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 11:07am
8 is considered a perfect score so three is the minimum which is barely passing.


Posted By: coconess
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 11:09am
a few years ago i could do 3 pull ups.. not anymore though 

marines are supposed to be beasts.. that is embarrassing 


Posted By: liesnalibis
Date Posted: Jan 03 2014 at 11:16am
I probably couldn't do any right now.


Posted By: naturesgift
Date Posted: Jan 05 2014 at 3:28pm
3 pull ups that a damn shame! In a pull up you are lifting your own weight and FITNESS that is part of a Marines job! what is the point if you are not fit they need better fitness trainers better food and better motivatiors PS thoes women all LOOK hurt! I guess being in the militay is NOT glam! yikes


Posted By: femmefatale85
Date Posted: Jan 05 2014 at 3:47pm
i know a lot of women that can pass these tests...they just don't want to be marines lol

they should recruit at crossfit, but ain't nobody tryna for this country



Posted By: naturesgift
Date Posted: Jan 05 2014 at 5:22pm
DO ^ you crossfit are the vomit rumors true! have you seen the results you want from it?



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