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Atheists have higher IQs

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Printed Date: Jun 20 2018 at 4:31am


Topic: Atheists have higher IQs
Posted By: zsazsa
Subject: Atheists have higher IQs
Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:15pm

Atheists 'have higher IQs': Their intelligence 'makes them more likely to dismiss religion as irrational and unscientific'

  • Research found those with higher IQs more likely to dismiss religion
  • Another drawback to being religious, or at least Christian is losing out on top jobs

Atheists tend to be more intelligent than religious people, according to a US study.

Researchers found that those with high IQs had greater self-control and were able to do more for themselves - so did not need the benefits that religion provides.


They also have better self esteem and built more supportive relationships, the study authors said.

New evidence: A study has concluded that religious people are less intelligent than non-believers

New evidence: A study has concluded that religious people are less intelligent than non-believers


The conclusions were the result of a review of 63 scientific studies about religion and intelligence dating between 1928 and last year.


In 53 of these there was a ‘reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity’. 

In just 10 was that relationship positive.

 


    Even among children, the more intelligent a child was the more probable it was that they would shun the church.

    In old age the same trend persisted as well, the research showed.


    The University of Rochester psychologists behind the study defined religion as involvement in some or all parts of a belief.


    They defined intelligence as the ‘ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience’.

    In their conclusions, they said: ‘Most extant explanations (of a negative relation) share one central theme - the premise that religious beliefs are irrational, not anchored in science, not testable and, therefore, unappealing to intelligent people who ‘know better’.


    ‘Intelligent people typically spend more time in school - a form of self-regulation that may yield long-term benefits.

    ‘More intelligent people getting higher level jobs and better employment and higher salary may lead to higher self-esteem, and encourage personal control beliefs.’


    Study co-author Jordan Silberman, a graduate student of neuroeconomics at the University of Rochester, said: ‘Intelligence may lead to greater self-control ability, self-esteem, perceived control over life events, and supportive relationships, obviating some of the benefits that religion sometimes provides.’

    Detailed: The research analysed 63 surveys comparing intelligence levels and religious beliefs between 1928 and 2012

    Detailed: The research analysed 63 surveys comparing intelligence levels and religious beliefs between 1928 and 2012



    Research from the UK last week showed another drawback to being religious, or at least Christian - you lose out in the race for top jobs.

    Official figures show nearly one in four people who have no religious belief now live in homes headed by someone with a senior executive job or a place in one of the professions.

    But well under a fifth of Christians are employed in the best-paid and most influential jobs or are married to someone who is, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

    The last census, carried out in March 2011, showed a fall in the number of people that call themselves Christian in the UK.

    Christian numbers in England and Wales, including children, fell by 4.1 million in a decade to 33.2 million.

    However there was a 45 per cent rise over the same 10 years in numbers who say they have no religion, to 14.1 million.






    Replies:
    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:15pm
    They gon gitchu zsazsa! LOL


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:18pm
    let me guess. daily fail? They make the most basic logical fallacy in this article.



    Posted By: mizzsandra00
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:19pm
    I believe it.......







    Posted By: zsazsa
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:21pm
    lol, I was going to put a disclaimer and I thought f it. I feel well hard todayLOL


    Posted By: zsazsa
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:22pm
    It is the Daily Fail but the article has appeared in other papers. 


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:29pm
    There was a study that was put out in Psychology Today around 2008-2010 that explored the same topic.  This isn't entirely new.  Here are two articles that explore the reasons for higher IQs among atheists.  Some studies tend to point to nurture--basically, when you have a society that advocates for a healthier environment, a society that is overall richer, and students who are better educated and encouraged to question everything around them, you tend to have a higher number of atheists.  The lack of belief, in other words, is not due to disappointment in a deity, as traditionally thought, but the ability to ask questions.  As I said before, it might be worth looking into--getting atheists and theists together to figure out why atheists societies tend to have a better quality of life when you look at the statistics of secular nations.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201005/the-real-reason-atheists-have-higher-iqs" rel="nofollow - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201005/the-real-reason-atheists-have-higher-iqs

    http://freethinker.co.uk/features/atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-religious-people/" rel="nofollow - http://freethinker.co.uk/features/atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-religious-people/


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:35pm
    IDK maybe it's because Im a stats major, But I refuse to believe any stat that comes from a blog. wasn't this the same site that said all black women were inherently ugly?


    Posted By: BBpants
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:48pm
    It's sooo true


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:48pm
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    IDK maybe it's because Im a stats major, But I refuse to believe any stat that comes from a blog. wasn't this the same site that said all black women were inherently ugly?


    Well, Psychology Today isn't a blog and there have been other studies published in journals that make the same claims.  One study about atheism and intelligence was actually written by the same guy who said black women were the least attractive of all women.  While I do believe the study claiming black women are inherently ugly was of a very poor design and based more on opinion, rather than fact, I tend to look at atheism a bit differently.  There is a clear pattern, here, of secular nations having lower crime rates, a tendency to provide good health care to citizens, and a tendency to be economically more stable than nations that are not. 


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:54pm
    Yes but the link posted is a blog. Its in the URL

    And the logical fallacy that I mentioned in my last post Is that just because 2 things are correlated doesnt mean that one causes the other
    Thats an incorrect conclusion to jump to. But the mistake is made everywhere.


    Posted By: Printer_Ink
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 4:08pm
    Of course this is true.
     
    What did Salin call Religion? 'It's the opium of the masses'. Confused
     
    Duh! Just keep ém all doped up ... praying away their troubles instead of taking hold of them themselves.


    Posted By: uppitynegroid
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 4:31pm
    Well the entire point of intellectualism is to question ideas, so it makes sense that people who tend to be intellectual question religion, social norms, and anything in relation to the status quo.  I think a lot of people don't admit this in public settings for fear of offending religious people.  I believe our president is atheist or at least agnostic.  Remember his statement about the rural population of Pennsylvania, "clinging to their Bibles and guns?"
     
     


    Posted By: zsazsa
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 4:34pm
    What do you guys think of this comment:

    Hardly suprising. Religious people are required to 'believe' not to think. The poorest and least educated countries are most religious. More education and wealth and... well, people start thinking about other things than sickness and hunger. I imagine that in 500 years people will thing about us the same way as we think about ancient Greeks believes in Zeus, Hera and other gods... as stories for children, interesting but not real.




    Posted By: femmemichelle
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 4:45pm
    Lol this is soooo true but all the stats painting black women as bad/negative/less intelligent aren't?

    BHM sure loves to choose when to be angry at things.

    LOL


    Posted By: BBpants
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 4:56pm
    I only used three o's ....


    Posted By: SweetNovember*
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 4:59pm
    Whites have higher IQs.... Stern Smile


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 5:12pm
    Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

    Lol this is soooo true but all the stats painting black women as bad/negative/less intelligent aren't?

    BHM sure loves to choose when to be angry at things.

    LOL


    Um, yeah.  Because what it is saying is that people who tend to question social norms more, tend to be more intelligent.  If you notice, there aren't very many devoutly religious people in the scientific community.  Ask yourself why that is.


    Posted By: Samoneisthebest
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 5:23pm
    Do you think people in medical fields are less likely to question things than people in scientific research?

    Doctors go through a whole lot of science training but do you think the distinct between it be focused on practice rather than research makes it less likely for them to question religion?

    Just wondering why my doctors always seem to be devoutly religion, whereas my research professors are not.




    Posted By: leftywefty
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 5:23pm
    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

    Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

    Lol this is soooo true but all the stats painting black women as bad/negative/less intelligent aren't?

    BHM sure loves to choose when to be angry at things.

    LOL


    Um, yeah.  Because what it is saying is that people who tend to question social norms more, tend to be more intelligent.  If you notice, there aren't very many devoutly religious people in the scientific community.  Ask yourself why that is.

    Incorrect.
    Muslims have a tendency to flock to science, math, and engineering.



    Posted By: smaison
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 5:29pm
    the shyt is true but yall go ahead and deny if you want too.


    Posted By: Bored w/Out Me?
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 5:32pm
    I'd rather be the dumbest person in Heaven, than the smartest person in hell...


    Posted By: AshBash89
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 5:43pm
    Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

    Lol this is soooo true but all the stats painting black women as bad/negative/less intelligent aren't?

    BHM sure loves to choose when to be angry at things.

    LOL


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 5:55pm
    Originally posted by leftywefty leftywefty wrote:

    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

    Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

    Lol this is soooo true but all the stats painting black women as bad/negative/less intelligent aren't?

    BHM sure loves to choose when to be angry at things.

    LOL


    Um, yeah.  Because what it is saying is that people who tend to question social norms more, tend to be more intelligent.  If you notice, there aren't very many devoutly religious people in the scientific community.  Ask yourself why that is.

    Incorrect.
    Muslims have a tendency to flock to science, math, and engineering.



    According to PEW, 33% of all scientists are religious.


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 5:58pm
    Originally posted by Samoneisthebest Samoneisthebest wrote:

    Do you think people in medical fields are less likely to question things than people in scientific research?

    Doctors go through a whole lot of science training but do you think the distinct between it be focused on practice rather than research makes it less likely for them to question religion?

    Just wondering why my doctors always seem to be devoutly religion, whereas my research professors are not.




    Well, I think the key here is devoutly religious.  I really don't think it is possible to administer medical treatment and be a devout follower of the bible at the same time.  I would have a problem with a doctor who believed in talking snakes administering treatment to me.  It's kind of like, if you are sick, do you believe solely in the power of prayer to heal you, or do you supplement that prayer with medical treatment? 


    Posted By: uppitynegroid
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:00pm
    Originally posted by Samoneisthebest Samoneisthebest wrote:

    Do you think people in medical fields are less likely to question things than people in scientific research?

    Doctors go through a whole lot of science training but do you think the distinct between it be focused on practice rather than research makes it less likely for them to question religion?

    Just wondering why my doctors always seem to be devoutly religion, whereas my research professors are not.


     
    I think its because doctors see the science they learned in school disproved all the time.  For instance a person gets an injury that they have a 5% chance of surviving and a 2% chance of making a full recovery, and a year later the person is fully recovered.  I think doctors see (more than anyone else) that so many aspects of mortality cannot be calculated or quantified. 
     
    Also, a lot of physicians practicing in the US are foreign born and raised.  Many of them memorize the factual science they need to do well in to complete their studies, but they compartmentalize that from their own personal belief in God.  Practicing medicine is a job, not a lifestyle the way Molecular Genetic research is.  I don't know if that make sense.


    Posted By: leftywefty
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:25pm
    Originally posted by uppitynegroid uppitynegroid wrote:

    Originally posted by Samoneisthebest Samoneisthebest wrote:

    Do you think people in medical fields are less likely to question things than people in scientific research?

    Doctors go through a whole lot of science training but do you think the distinct between it be focused on practice rather than research makes it less likely for them to question religion?

    Just wondering why my doctors always seem to be devoutly religion, whereas my research professors are not.


     
    I think its because doctors see the science they learned in school disproved all the time.  For instance a person gets an injury that they have a 5% chance of surviving and a 2% chance of making a full recovery, and a year later the person is fully recovered.  I think doctors see (more than anyone else) that so many aspects of mortality cannot be calculated or quantified. 
     
    Also, a lot of physicians practicing in the US are foreign born and raised.  Many of them memorize the factual science they need to do well in to complete their studies, but they compartmentalize that from their own personal belief in God.  Practicing medicine is a job, not a lifestyle the way Molecular Genetic research is.  I don't know if that make sense.

    I'll speak as a 3rd year med student, who is a muslim--I have never separated my faith from my studies. I see Gods work in everything I do. Science has strengthened my faith because of the incredible level of complexity and order that exists in our world and universe. There are only two possibilities. Either there is a God that created and designed everything....or there is an infinite number of universes and a universe like ours (with perfect conditions and laws of nature) was spontaneously created. There is no proof for either. Therefore there is no "correct" answer. I think that when/if science can explain how matter at the time of the big bang was created from nothing (which is a direct violation of scientific law), then we will make more ground. Until then, no one is "stupid" for believing in God, and no one is "stupid" for not believing. This "study" is no more meaningful than all the other studies that people do for the pure purpose of uplifting themselves and putting down others. I appreciate your post uppity-- however I'd have to disagree about medicine being a "job"...I definitely consider it a lifestyle.


    Posted By: femmemichelle
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:35pm
    So you're telling me all the Buddhist, Muslim, and Christian men and women walking the halls of my top ranked engineering college aren't nearly as intelligent as they could be if they were Atheist? Oh. That makes so much sense. Especially considering many of them are involved in world changing research projects, but I'm schleep doe.


    Posted By: femmemichelle
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:38pm
    Originally posted by Bored w/Out Me? Bored w/Out Me? wrote:

    I'd rather be the dumbest person in Heaven, than the smartest person in hell...

    5 star post yall. BHM loves to sh.it on the religious but when the world sh*ts on them a la degrading statistics that point to black women being less, you know, things that hurt them, all of a sudden the faulty reasoning and rationale behind these sorts of stats go out the window.

    So convenient.


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:51pm
    Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

    So you're telling me all the Buddhist, Muslim, and Christian men and women walking the halls of my top ranked engineering college aren't nearly as intelligent as they could be if they were Atheist? Oh. That makes so much sense. Especially considering many of them are involved in world changing research projects, but I'm schleep doe.


    No, what I am saying is that Atheists have a tendency not to have absolute knowledge and question everything, whether they think they know or not.  Once you stop studying and say things like, "We are created in god's image," you generally tend to stop asking questions and therefore stop learning.  This is why many scientific theories aren't anything like what they were when they were first developed and why religions have pretty much been constant for centuries. 

    Early on, people literally thought they were the center of the universe.  They believed the sun revolved around the earth.  Several religions establish that as "fact," even Christianity.  It took a person who was not satisfied with that explanation to discover that we are revolving around the sun and not only that, the universe is actually expanding and we are only a spec of dust compared to how big the universe is. 

    I think with doctors, the reason why some of them appear to believe in "miracles" is that they stop studying and researching and they use an applied form of science.  A researcher would be much more likely to say, "Gee, the 5% of the people who didn't die when they should have...what's going on here?  Could it be a natural immunity?  Could it be how the treatment was administered?" They tend to do further studies on why a person would recover when the odds were against them.  Non-research doctors are not really interested in that.


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:52pm
    Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

    Originally posted by Bored w/Out Me? Bored w/Out Me? wrote:

    I'd rather be the dumbest person in Heaven, than the smartest person in hell...

    5 star post yall. BHM loves to sh.it on the religious but when the world sh*ts on them a la degrading statistics that point to black women being less, you know, things that hurt them, all of a sudden the faulty reasoning and rationale behind these sorts of stats go out the window.

    So convenient.


    This is a pretty silly observation, especially when MOST members of BHM are religious.


    Posted By: Lady ICE
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:52pm
    Originally posted by Bored w/Out Me? Bored w/Out Me? wrote:

    I'd rather be the dumbest person in Heaven, than the smartest person in hell...
    Heart


    Posted By: femmemichelle
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:54pm
    Whatever. Let me go wallow in my religious ignorance (Ermm) as I pray over this Chick Fil A I'm about to devour. 


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 6:57pm
    Originally posted by femmemichelle femmemichelle wrote:

    Whatever. Let me go wallow in my religious ignorance (Ermm) as I pray over this Chick Fil A I'm about to devour. 


    Who said that?  You are making an incorrect observation about BHM based on FIVE posters.

    LOL


    Posted By: Midna
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 7:19pm
    Tokyo!


    Posted By: NadiaPost
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 7:31pm
    good for them I'm a dumbass with jesus in my heart


    Posted By: melikey
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 7:57pm
    Originally posted by SweetNovember* SweetNovember* wrote:

    Whites have higher IQs.... Stern Smile

    i'm sure there's a study that backs this up tooLOL

    the only thing i remember about psychology today is that they posted the article about black women being the least attractive..
    so uhhh.....yeah


    Posted By: melikey
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:00pm
    i'd also be inclined to believe this study if it was about agnostics, and not atheists.. 
    there has to be a point in time where even the most intelligent, know what they do not know.


    Posted By: AshBash89
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:01pm
    Originally posted by leftywefty leftywefty wrote:

    Originally posted by uppitynegroid uppitynegroid wrote:

    Originally posted by Samoneisthebest Samoneisthebest wrote:

    Do you think people in medical fields are less likely to question things than people in scientific research?

    Doctors go through a whole lot of science training but do you think the distinct between it be focused on practice rather than research makes it less likely for them to question religion?

    Just wondering why my doctors always seem to be devoutly religion, whereas my research professors are not.



     
    I think its because doctors see the science they learned in school disproved all the time.  For instance a person gets an injury that they have a 5% chance of surviving and a 2% chance of making a full recovery, and a year later the person is fully recovered.  I think doctors see (more than anyone else) that so many aspects of mortality cannot be calculated or quantified. 
     
    Also, a lot of physicians practicing in the US are foreign born and raised.  Many of them memorize the factual science they need to do well in to complete their studies, but they compartmentalize that from their own personal belief in God.  Practicing medicine is a job, not a lifestyle the way Molecular Genetic research is.  I don't know if that make sense.

    I'll speak as a 3rd year med student, who is a muslim--I have never separated my faith from my studies. I see Gods work in everything I do. Science has strengthened my faith because of the incredible level of complexity and order that exists in our world and universe. There are only two possibilities. Either there is a God that created and designed everything....or there is an infinite number of universes and a universe like ours (with perfect conditions and laws of nature) was spontaneously created. There is no proof for either. Therefore there is no "correct" answer. I think that when/if science can explain how matter at the time of the big bang was created from nothing (which is a direct violation of scientific law), then we will make more ground. Until then, no one is "stupid" for believing in God, and no one is "stupid" for not believing. This "study" is no more meaningful than all the other studies that people do for the pure purpose of uplifting themselves and putting down others. I appreciate your post uppity-- however I'd have to disagree about medicine being a "job"...I definitely consider it a lifestyle.





    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:02pm
    Originally posted by melikey melikey wrote:

    i'd also be inclined to believe this study if it was about agnostics, and not atheists.. 
    there has to be a point in time where even the most intelligent, know what they do not know.


    Most atheists will and have claimed that the do not know everything and have actually prided themselves on not having all the answers.  The number gnostic atheists out there is generally very, very low.  Even then, the general tendency is to think, "a deity did not do this, so what DID?" 


    Posted By: melikey
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:10pm
    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

    Originally posted by melikey melikey wrote:

    i'd also be inclined to believe this study if it was about agnostics, and not atheists.. 
    there has to be a point in time where even the most intelligent, know what they do not know.


    Most atheists will and have claimed that the do not know everything and have actually prided themselves on not having all the answers.  The number gnostic atheists out there is generally very, very low.  Even then, the general tendency is to think, "a deity did not do this, so what DID?" 

    "a deity did not do this, so what DID?" 

    the two parts of that sentence are mutually exclusive, and that is my point. 


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:15pm
    Originally posted by melikey melikey wrote:

    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

    Originally posted by melikey melikey wrote:

    i'd also be inclined to believe this study if it was about agnostics, and not atheists.. 
    there has to be a point in time where even the most intelligent, know what they do not know.


    Most atheists will and have claimed that the do not know everything and have actually prided themselves on not having all the answers.  The number gnostic atheists out there is generally very, very low.  Even then, the general tendency is to think, "a deity did not do this, so what DID?" 

    "a deity did not do this, so what DID?" 

    the two parts of that sentence are mutually exclusive, and that is my point. 


    How so?


    Posted By: afrokock
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:15pm
    You can't be a true atheist and believe this is true

    It's almost oxymoronic


    Posted By: rickysrose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:15pm
    I'd say let's settle this on BHM ... post your IQs 

    but I'm not as messy as I used to be


    Posted By: nitabug
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:17pm
    II believe it, but for other reasons


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:18pm
    Well, when talking about a "what" it doesn't mean an entity, per se.  More so a process.  Most atheists actually have looked at the possibility of a "divine creator" in the scientific process and they have also ruled it out using that same process.


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:22pm
    Originally posted by afrokock afrokock wrote:

    You can't be a true atheist and believe this is true

    It's almost oxymoronic
    lol. Many Atheists will believe studies like this blindly even if it doesn't present any scientific proof. I think it's interesting.


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:34pm
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    Originally posted by afrokock afrokock wrote:

    You can't be a true atheist and believe this is true

    It's almost oxymoronic
    lol. Many Atheists will believe studies like this blindly even if it doesn't present any scientific proof. I think it's interesting.


    Proof can be very subjective, especially in studies like these.  The best you can do in this situation is look at what several related studies about the topic say and then form a logical conclusion.  There have been several studies on religion and intelligence that have gone on for decades.  While these studies may not offer definitive proof, what keeps popping up is the conclusion that says those whose IQs were higher had a tendency towards agnosticism or atheism. 


    Posted By: NadiaPost
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:37pm
    Why is it just atheist have high Iq's? What about people who worship cabbages and oranges. Why weren't they included in the study? Cabbage believers are just as smart as atheists. Cabbages are the same size as the human head..Think about it. Who conducted this study..Elmo?


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:37pm
    Originally posted by NadiaPost NadiaPost wrote:

    Why is it just atheist have high Iq's? What about people who worship cabbages and oranges. Why weren't they included in the study? Cabbage believers are just as smart as atheists. Cabbages are the same size as the human head..Think about it. Who conducted this study..Elmo?


    That would follow under "other religions."


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:44pm
    scientific proof can never be subjective. I know it seems like Im picking on little things, but honestly  it works my nerves when media (especially the daily fail) make conclusions on a 'statistic' that doesn't say anything of the sort and doesn't follow logic. It's just sensationalized and misleading to the public. 


    Posted By: rickysrose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 8:47pm
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    scientific proof can never be subjective. I know it seems like Im picking on little things, but honestly  it works my nerves when media (especially the daily fail) make conclusions on a 'statistic' that doesn't say anything of the sort and doesn't follow logic. It's just sensationalized and misleading to the public. 

    well




    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 9:04pm
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    scientific proof can never be subjective. I know it seems like Im picking on little things, but honestly  it works my nerves when media (especially the daily fail) make conclusions on a 'statistic' that doesn't say anything of the sort and doesn't follow logic. It's just sensationalized and misleading to the public. 


    I just had a post and lost it.

    Scientific proof actually relies on individuals and groups to be unbiased.  In order to have a scientific process a theory needs to be repeatedly tested, peer reviewed and recreated.  If an individual makes the claim, "god healed me through prayer!" An atheist will most likely 1. ask which god did the healing, 2. ask a person of a different faith how they believed they were healed and 3. ask a person who did not pray how they were healed. 

    There seems to be this common misconception that Atheists automatically reject any evidence of a deity, which is not necessarily true.  Atheists ask for the evidence of a deity and of a person's specific deity, and if that proof is given, they are far more likely to change their mind.  If I received either good logical or empirical evidence for any deity, I would be excited.

    At the end of the day, we are debating over a 4-6 point difference in IQ between theists and non-theists (that gap gets larger the more fundamentalist the theist is).  Much of it, I think, has to do with the way that theists and non-theists reason.  It doesn't mean that all atheists are geniuses, as that is not what any study I have come across has stated.


    Posted By: StylingArabella
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 9:15pm
    Sounds about right, I know an Atheist who could have a PHD in "Bitc%ing About Everything".


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 9:16pm
    You're misrepresenting my stance. I don't care HOW many IQ points they're talking about. 

    The study was not carried out correctly and doesn't come to a conclusion based on logic like they want people to believe. 

    The assertion that a high IQ causes people to reject the belief a deity is in fact subjective, just like you said. Not at all based in any truth or fact. 




    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 9:25pm
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    You're misrepresenting my stance. I don't care HOW many IQ points they're talking about. 

    If the study was not carried out correctly and doesn't come to a conclusion based on logic like they want people to believe. 

    The assertion that a high IQ causes people to reject the belief a deity is in fact subjective, just like you said. Not at all based in any truth or fact. 




    But how would you arrive at "truth" or "fact" if you are asking a number of people what their personal beliefs are?  The studies say that those with higher IQs have a tendency to be atheist or agnostic.  Based on reading hundreds of individual experiences, without knowing the individual's IQ, the tendency towards rejecting theism had more to do with the tendency to question and apply more reasoning skills.  Questioning and reasoning also, coincidentally, are characteristics of individuals with higher IQs.  So, while one cannot say A is automatically predispositioned to B, you can say that A is a common factor with B or shows up at a higher frequency, therefore making it true to a certain degree. 

    And I am not saying that the difference in IQ points is directly related to YOU or anything YOU have said.  I was making the observation in general, whenever the topic of theism and IQ comes up.  People often don't understand that these studies show a minor difference in IQ between theists and non-theists and then automatically assume the researchers are saying theists are stupid and non-theists are geniuses.


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 10:19pm
    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    You're misrepresenting my stance. I don't care HOW many IQ points they're talking about. 

    If the study was not carried out correctly and doesn't come to a conclusion based on logic like they want people to believe. 

    The assertion that a high IQ causes people to reject the belief a deity is in fact subjective, just like you said. Not at all based in any truth or fact. 




    But how would you arrive at "truth" or "fact" if you are asking a number of people what their personal beliefs are?  
    I can't get into this without typing a whole lot. But you generally need experimental data, not observational data. 


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 10:25pm
    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:



      So, while one cannot say A is automatically predispositioned to B, you can say that A is a common factor with B or shows up at a higher frequency, therefore making it true to a certain degree. 

    And btw, this is soooo false.  A and B can be ice cream eaten and drownings.  Or number of pirates in the world and global temperature. (Both which are true facts if you substitute them out for A and B in your original post)

    But the truth is, they have nothing to do with each other.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B271L3NtAw" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B271L3NtAw



    Posted By: Alias_Avi
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 10:30pm
    Yet another study done to make a subset of people feel better about themselves


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 10:35pm
    Originally posted by Alias_Avi Alias_Avi wrote:

    Yet another study done to make a subset of people feel better about themselves


    Did you read the actual studies?  That is not what these studies are saying.  That is what the media is reporting.


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 10:38pm
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:



      So, while one cannot say A is automatically predispositioned to B, you can say that A is a common factor with B or shows up at a higher frequency, therefore making it true to a certain degree. 

    And btw, this is soooo false.  A and B can be ice cream eaten and drownings.  Or number of pirates in the world and global temperature. (Both which are true facts if you substitute them out for A and B in your original post)

    But the truth is, they have nothing to do with each other.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B271L3NtAw" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B271L3NtAw



    That's not what I am saying.  What I am saying is that there are common factors between the two and they tend to show up at a higher rate between the two. 


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 10:40pm
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    You're misrepresenting my stance. I don't care HOW many IQ points they're talking about. 

    If the study was not carried out correctly and doesn't come to a conclusion based on logic like they want people to believe. 

    The assertion that a high IQ causes people to reject the belief a deity is in fact subjective, just like you said. Not at all based in any truth or fact. 




    But how would you arrive at "truth" or "fact" if you are asking a number of people what their personal beliefs are?  
    I can't get into this without typing a whole lot. But you generally need experimental data, not observational data. 


    Well, if someone out there is able to quantify beliefs so that this could be done, please let me know.  LOL


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 10:42pm
    Look at the examples in the video. There are common factors between many things that are correlated. Doesnt make it fact At All.


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 10:47pm
    Lol. Anyone could carry this out in a more scientific way.


    Posted By: Tbaby
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 1:24am
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    IDK maybe it's because Im a stats major, But I refuse to believe any stat that comes from a blog. wasn't this the same site that said all black women were inherently ugly?


    That its from a blog and also from a popular magazine that isn't peer reviewed makes it more lacking in any real scientific evidence/credibility. 


    Originally posted by Alias_Avi Alias_Avi wrote:

    Yet another study done to make a subset of people feel better about themselves


    I think this really is the true objective of this "study".  Atheists go around arrogantly thinking they are "smarter" then Christians anyway, and so this weak study was put together to try to back up such a lame assertion.


    Posted By: Sang Froid
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 2:00am
    Hmmm.....


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 2:31am
    Originally posted by Tbaby Tbaby wrote:

    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    IDK maybe it's because Im a stats major, But I refuse to believe any stat that comes from a blog. wasn't this the same site that said all black women were inherently ugly?


    That its from a blog and also from a popular magazine that isn't peer reviewed makes it more lacking in any real scientific evidence/credibility. 


    Originally posted by Alias_Avi Alias_Avi wrote:

    Yet another study done to make a subset of people feel better about themselves


    I think this really is the true objective of this "study".  Atheists go around arrogantly thinking they are "smarter" then Christians anyway, and so this weak study was put together to try to back up such a lame assertion.


    Yes, it is a blog.  It is a STARTING POINT.  There were 63 studies from 1950 (or earlier?)-2012 that were peer reviewed that examined the relationship between religious beliefs and intelligence.  Some of them found a correlation, others were inconclusive, still others found the opposite to be true.  It is a topic that continues to be examined.

    Let's be honest.  If there were an article written about the intelligence or even health of religious people being better than those that weren't, a LOT of people would be eating it up.  I remember a thread a while ago about how a "study" claimed that prayer was shown to have an effect on recovery of the ill and not a single religious person stood up to question the validity of the article.  Instead, the article was supported...with anecdotal evidence which was accepted as "fact." 

    And to be clear, once again.  Atheists don't go and attack or specifically go after Christians.  I find that a bit self-centered.  Atheists do not believe in ANY deities.  I have said it before, and I will continue to say, that I don't feel it's that large of an issue.  Atheists just believe in one less god than Christians do.


    Posted By: Sang Froid
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 2:57am
    I will say that the uber Christians I know are a bit.....touched. 


    Posted By: _ConcreteRose_
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 10:35am
    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:



    Yes, it is a blog.  It is a STARTING POINT.  There were 63 studies from 1950 (or earlier?)-2012 that were peer reviewed that examined the relationship between religious beliefs and intelligence.  
      


    really? I just did a quick search through my schools research port. I found 4 articles on the topic, none which were peer reviewed. Also none of them said High IQ causes atheism except one (written by the same guy who wrote Black women are ugly).

    ETA: Listen, if you want to believe this, then thats fine, and I really don't have a problem with it. But I just feel like it's your right to know there's no scientific proof like they are leading you to believe. 




    Posted By: JoliePoufiasse
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 11:33am
    Concrete Rose's arguments: Clap
    I'm glad you were there to demonstrate the lack of logic in this stance. Because it is nothing but a stance and is not the least bit rooted in tangible evidence.


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 4:02pm
    Originally posted by _ConcreteRose_ _ConcreteRose_ wrote:

    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:



    Yes, it is a blog.  It is a STARTING POINT.  There were 63 studies from 1950 (or earlier?)-2012 that were peer reviewed that examined the relationship between religious beliefs and intelligence.  
      


    really? I just did a quick search through my schools research port. I found 4 articles on the topic, none which were peer reviewed. Also none of them said High IQ causes atheism except one (written by the same guy who wrote Black women are ugly).

    ETA: Listen, if you want to believe this, then thats fine, and I really don't have a problem with it. But I just feel like it's your right to know there's no scientific proof like they are leading you to believe. 




    You weren't looking too hard.


    Posted By: ms_wonderland
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 6:26pm
    at the end of the day, no one agrees w any study they don't want to believe.  i'm not going to read it bc i don't really care.  i never asked a tutor, doctor, geek squad associate, or lawyer what they believed in before i was helped.


    Posted By: .hott.pink.
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 7:05pm
    The absolute DUMBEST chick I know is a zealous Christian and the absolute SMARTEST guy I know is an atheist.

    Not to say that the article is absolutely correct, but that's interesting to me.


    Posted By: uppitynegroid
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 7:07pm
    Tokyo always goes so hard in these religious threads.  I admire your perseverance.  LOL


    Posted By: JoliePoufiasse
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 7:31pm
    I don't know why folks are so invested in declaring a whole subset of people smarter or dumber than over spiritual beliefs. I guess that means 3/4 of the world is dumb as fucc...


    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 7:51pm
    Originally posted by JoliePoufiasse JoliePoufiasse wrote:

    I don't know why folks are so invested in declaring a whole subset of people smarter or dumber than over spiritual beliefs. I guess that means 3/4 of the world is dumb as fucc...


    Okay, it is really elear that you didn't read the thread nor any of the research out there about beliefs and intelligence.  The research does NOT say that atheists are geniuses and theists are dumb.  That is how mass media is interpreting the studies--for sensationalism.  It has to do with the way that atheists and theists reason.  A difference of 4-6 points on the IQ scale isn't really that big of a difference. 

    No one was this passionate when it came to prayer and illness to come up with alternative possibilities for that study.  One could have also incorrectly drawn that those who don't pray are more unhealthy or prone to prolonged illness than those who believe.  Where was the uproar, then?

    Uppity, the believers are going just as hard.  LOL


    Posted By: newdiva1
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 10:02pm
    *sighs*  I lost my post.

    Man...most people will agree with a study/article that paints them in a favorable light.  With no questions on methodology or nothing. It is what it is.

    Nobody wants to be thought stupid.  Even if only by 2 or 0.02 points.  Folks read (some folks skimmed) that article and all they can see is that they're being called dumb. Folks are gonna take it personal...especially something like this.  *shrugs* Again... it is what it is.


    Posted By: newdiva1
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 10:11pm
    hmmmm...I will say this is just the thing to distract and bring up tensions.   Anybody know what's going on in Gov't right now?  Any laws in the process of gettin' low key passed right now or soon? 


    Posted By: BBpants
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 10:14pm
    I don't even need to comment....Tokyo said all I needed to say lol


    Posted By: ThatGurlD
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 10:22pm
    I could post many different articles stating research shows whites have higher IQs than blacks and the responses would be very different.  

    It's near impossible to be objective about a subject that involves you or your stance.  

    That said, I do believe if you get enough education you can talk yourself out of anything; love, marriage, sexual orientation vs assigned sex, having kids, driving a car.....

    I'm Christian and I have met dumb people from both extremes and everything in between.  




    Posted By: TokyoRose
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 10:31pm
    I think belief and reason are slightly different, though. I mean, I think it is possible to explore why certain populations are able to produce seemingly sound, rational arguments FOR their own deities, while completely dismissing others. It could also be interesting to find out if those same people would be willing to provide a sound, rational argument against their belief system.

    I don't think that race and intelligence can be connected in the same way that, for example rational though (which presumes a certain level of intelligence) can be compared to belief.

    Is it perfectly rational to believe there is a flying tea pot orbiting the Earth?
    You tell me.


    Posted By: kfoxx1998
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 10:33pm
    The "study" is a little silly when you consider that we're talking about faith.  It is such a personal thing and I just don't believe there is a way to actually "study" it.  Even if we believe we know each person in a study very well their inner thoughts can never really be known.  I can't really explain this, its just something I don't believe most people are willing to put out there nakedly w/o their inner thoughts having a life of their own.   This goes for atheists and religious followers alike.  Even during a "crisis of faith" most people will continue to push thoughts towards one or the other because it is a highly emotional thing and everyone wants to get it right. 

    Its just not as black and white as something like political leanings.  Now that I think about it the last time we had a discussion like this it was because of an article that said Republicans are less intelligent but we all know Republicans purposely dumb themselves down for votes.  They simply CANNOT be this dumb IMO.  Religion is just a LOT harder to truly measure. 


    Posted By: newdiva1
    Date Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 11:32pm
    Originally posted by TokyoRose TokyoRose wrote:

    I think belief and reason are slightly different, though. I mean, I think it is possible to explore why certain populations are able to produce seemingly sound, rational arguments FOR their own deities, while completely dismissing others. It could also be interesting to find out if those same people would be willing to provide a sound, rational argument against their belief system.

    I don't think that race and intelligence can be connected in the same way that, for example rational though (which presumes a certain level of intelligence) can be compared to belief.

    Is it perfectly rational to believe there is a flying tea pot orbiting the Earth?
    You tell me.

     
     





    Posted By: CLCNY20
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 8:51am
    Originally posted by mizzsandra00 mizzsandra00 wrote:

    I believe it.......







    as do i


    Posted By: OoDles O
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 9:11am
    If we had to rely on the bible belt to choose our next president....
    I'm sure we would all commit dat.




    Posted By: afrokock
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 10:38am
    How is intelligence being measured here?


    Posted By: Printer_Ink
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 10:44am
    Originally posted by JoliePoufiasse JoliePoufiasse wrote:

    I don't know why folks are so invested in declaring a whole subset of people smarter or dumber than over spiritual beliefs. I guess that means 3/4 of the world is dumb as fucc...
     
    Well, ahh ... that is correct.
     
    3/4th  of the world is dumb as ...
     
    And I think it's funny that any study posted on BHM ... is automatically .. false. Confused


    Posted By: blaquefoxx
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 11:09am
    Intelligence is a non factor if ones knowledge is based on lies. Doesn't matter which side of the spectrum you are on (believer or non-believer). Considering that the worldly knowledge, theories and information that's being pushed to the masses is sh!tty and constantly changing (deviating from the truth), becoming highly intelligent according to society's standard is not a difficult achievement.




    Posted By: purpulicious01
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 11:35am
    Originally posted by leftywefty leftywefty wrote:

    Originally posted by uppitynegroid uppitynegroid wrote:

    Originally posted by Samoneisthebest Samoneisthebest wrote:

    Do you think people in medical fields are less likely to question things than people in scientific research?

    Doctors go through a whole lot of science training but do you think the distinct between it be focused on practice rather than research makes it less likely for them to question religion?

    Just wondering why my doctors always seem to be devoutly religion, whereas my research professors are not.


     
    I think its because doctors see the science they learned in school disproved all the time.  For instance a person gets an injury that they have a 5% chance of surviving and a 2% chance of making a full recovery, and a year later the person is fully recovered.  I think doctors see (more than anyone else) that so many aspects of mortality cannot be calculated or quantified. 
     
    Also, a lot of physicians practicing in the US are foreign born and raised.  Many of them memorize the factual science they need to do well in to complete their studies, but they compartmentalize that from their own personal belief in God.  Practicing medicine is a job, not a lifestyle the way Molecular Genetic research is.  I don't know if that make sense.

    I'll speak as a 3rd year med student, who is a muslim--I have never separated my faith from my studies. I see Gods work in everything I do. Science has strengthened my faith because of the incredible level of complexity and order that exists in our world and universe. There are only two possibilities. Either there is a God that created and designed everything....or there is an infinite number of universes and a universe like ours (with perfect conditions and laws of nature) was spontaneously created. There is no proof for either. Therefore there is no "correct" answer. I think that when/if science can explain how matter at the time of the big bang was created from nothing (which is a direct violation of scientific law), then we will make more ground. Until then, no one is "stupid" for believing in God, and no one is "stupid" for not believing. This "study" is no more meaningful than all the other studies that people do for the pure purpose of uplifting themselves and putting down others. I appreciate your post uppity-- however I'd have to disagree about medicine being a "job"...I definitely consider it a lifestyle.

    Very well said. 

    I've learned to avoid BHM's threads on religion, but had to quote leftywefty's post for emphasis. Beautiful, well-articulated, thoughtful response. 



    Alright, that's all I'm done. Continue on folks...


    Posted By: JoliePoufiasse
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 5:40pm
    Originally posted by Printer_Ink Printer_Ink wrote:

    Originally posted by JoliePoufiasse JoliePoufiasse wrote:

    I don't know why folks are so invested in declaring a whole subset of people smarter or dumber than over spiritual beliefs. I guess that means 3/4 of the world is dumb as fucc...
     
    Well, ahh ... that is correct.
     
    3/4th  of the world is dumb as ...
     
    And I think it's funny that any study posted on BHM ... is automatically .. false. Confused
    I wonder which quarter you position yourself in... nvm


    Posted By: carolina cutie
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 9:47pm
    Originally posted by OoDles O OoDles O wrote:

    If we had to rely on the bible belt to choose our next president....
    I'm sure we would all commit dat.


    Hell naw! Can you imagine how much more this country's history would be effed up if that happened?DeadLOL


    Posted By: newdiva1
    Date Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 10:35pm
    Originally posted by OoDles O' Noodles OoDles O' Noodles wrote:

    If we had to rely on the bible belt to choose our next president....
    I'm sure we would all commit dat.



     


    shiiiiiiid.



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