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Is Atheism a religion?

 
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SensitiveSwag View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SensitiveSwag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2012 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by kfoxx1998 kfoxx1998 wrote:

Originally posted by SensitiveSwag SensitiveSwag wrote:


If you believe that I am enforcing those non-beliefs on you you're wrong. I would only do that because I would have a genuine concern about your mental stability if you REALLY believed in those non-existent things and that could actually hurt you in the life you are living here and now.  If didn't birth you or marry you, I'm not that pressed to convince you that you might be delusional.

I'm confused by this statement because you said that you're not enforcing those non-beliefs while criticizing that one that believes in a God is delusional or that you question their "mental stability".

Isn't that a double standard as to saying that you won't press someone with scientific knowledge that a God doesn't exist but you are calling them dumb for believing in a God?



Disagreement does not always equal criticism.  I don't think this is a double standard and I'm not calling anyone dumb.  Why do religious people get so offended by the opinion that believing in gods is delusional?  That is what I believe but you are free to prove to me that I'm wrong.   IMO it meets the definition.

Definition of DELUSION

a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated

b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

I am willing to use another word if delusional is too hurtful but the thing is people will be offended no matter how I say itHug

If I said Mos Def was extremely talented and you believed with all your heart that he is the worst rapper / actor of all time would I be forcing you to believe something or stating my opinion / view.

Here's the double standard, if I didn't agree with you that Mos Def was extremely talented and you called me delusional for not thinking the same way as you, you are subliminally enforcing your belief on me. In the same sense, if you were to question my "mental stability" because of my religious views, you are doing the same thing as those that go around enforcing their beliefs on you. In essence, that would make your way of thinking as religious as the spiritual person that does believe in God except that person does not criticize you for your way of think they're just bringing that point across and allowing you the decision to agree or disagree.


This argument you're making about enforcing views ONLY seems to apply to religion and politics (which I believe are the same thing by the way) and only when someone disagrees. 

At one point in history, religion and politics were hand in hand so in a way you can say politics can be associated with religion especially when politicians use religion to coincide with their statements during political debates that touch topics such as pro-abortion/ anti-abortion, death penalty, life in prison, gay marriage, etc...

In my statement before, religion is more focused on a way of life, code of ethics whereas politics is simply based on rules used to govern a nation.
Originally posted by SensitiveSwag SensitiveSwag wrote:


But not every religious person believes in a God. I know monks don't.


Only referring to atheism with my response, not religion.  ATHEISM is the lack of belief in deities period.  Again, this is MY answer to your question in the OP.  


Atheism is the belief in the lack of deities but it's also the belief in the science behind the reason for the lack of deities in which goes back to your original statement that one that doesn't believe in your logic of the non-existence of a God is "delusional" or "mentally unstable" because he/she may have had their personal relationship with God that you have not seen. If you don't believe them, they won't call you delusional but the double standard comes in you calling them delusional for what they've personally seen or their experiences in life in which their deity has brought them out of. Big smile


Edited by SensitiveSwag - Nov 06 2012 at 6:17pm
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SensitiveSwag View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SensitiveSwag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2012 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by kfoxx1998 kfoxx1998 wrote:

Originally posted by bigheddz bigheddz wrote:


To reply to the topic directly when Atheists write books about not believing in a god, having rallies, advertising(literally spreading the word and dedicated web sites), creating Atheist groups/organizations and developing what seems to be a movement then at the point it has become conceptually the same as a religion. All of these things are happening, and they seem to have strong convictions. one of the signs of a religious atheist or a dedicated Atheist is when said person consistently participates in topics of religion.

 

In conclusion, I will say that many atheists can be considered religious, but not all.



I was completely with you until the bolded.   This statement could be applied to any group of like minded people who come together to share ideas and possibly bring about reforms, etc.  Are these religious organizations?:

- Civil Rights Movement (lol, seriously, equality amongst African-Americans targets a religion)
- Gary Rights Movement (Gay rights? Being gay isn't a religion, matter fact both these movements were to fight against discrimination which do not reflect a religion)
- Mothers against Drunk Driving (Still off topic)
- KKK (Hate crime but not against religion although they do look for false scriptures in the bible)
- Democrats (Politics not religion)
- Republicans
(Politics not religion)
- National Teachers Association
(Yea, lol, I'm lost here)

These groups do not persuade others out of their religious view nor reflect any ideas pertaining to how one views birth, life and death with moral values to one's life on this earth.

Its not that I disagree with the idea of what you're saying I just find it to be an inaccurate way to move atheism into the category of religion.  TO ME, it makes more sense to move religion under the category of an organization with a purpose like all of the above.  

Or better still call religion what it is and I think you (bigheddz) described it perfectly.  Religion is about moving with a faith in higher beings.  There is no need to retrofit those who disagree or do not carry that faith in gods or spirits into the category of religion. 

I also think that being very interested in religion doesn't necessarily make one religious either.  Personally I find religion to be one of the most fascinating topics in the human experience.  My interest is in ALL religions going back to the original religion which is believed to be Zoroastrianism.  I am just as interested in history and social science but we don't have sections for thatConfused.

I think this is a great topic by the way OPThumbs Up








Let's break down the word, "faith".

Faith is simply a belief or assumption in something.

Atheism is the faith, belief or assumption in the non-existence of a God but also the faith, belief or assuming in the science that proves that there isn't any existence of a God.

If 80% to 90% of scientist are athiest and they're job is to disprove the non-existence of a God, you have faith in their judgement that God doesn't exist. Your moral understanding is that one that believes in a God is delusion so you have a code of ethics that the belief in a God is a poison to one's life that judges their mental stability. You avoid believing in a God because that is your way of life therefore you follow a guideline or a religion.
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kfoxx1998 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kfoxx1998 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 07 2012 at 10:53am
Originally posted by SensitiveSwag SensitiveSwag wrote:


Here's the double standard, if I didn't agree with you that Mos Def was extremely talented and you called me delusional for not thinking the same way as you, you are subliminally enforcing your belief on me. In the same sense, if you were to question my "mental stability" because of my religious views, you are doing the same thing as those that go around enforcing their beliefs on you. In essence, that would make your way of thinking as religious as the spiritual person that does believe in God except that person does not criticize you for your way of think they're just bringing that point across and allowing you the decision to agree or disagree.


Do you really think there is subliminal intent in calling something you see it?   Also...You must be new here if you really believe religious people don't go ape sh*t over the mere idea of atheismLOL

Originally posted by SensitiveSwag SensitiveSwag wrote:


Atheism is the belief in the lack of deities but it's also the belief in the science behind the reason for the lack of deities in which goes back to your original statement that one that doesn't believe in your logic of the non-existence of a God is "delusional" or "mentally unstable" because he/she may have had their personal relationship with God that you have not seen. If you don't believe them, they won't call you delusional but the double standard comes in you calling them delusional for what they've personally seen or their experiences in life in which their deity has brought them out of. Big smile


For my assessment of gods there was literally no science involved, only history.  In any event science is used everyday to make decisions every second of every day.  The "science" of meteorology helps you decide whether or not to wear a coat. 

Again, if you tell me you saw a fairy riding on a unicorn and she told you to spread the word that there is gold at the end of the rainbow, I would think you were delusional.  If that hurts your feelings I care because I do care about people's feelings, but I would still have the same opinion. 

One more time!  If you think religious people won't / don't call atheists much worse things than delusional then I am 100% certain that you are.  Being invited to burn in the mythological hell is NOT "turn the other cheekish"LOL.

But being called a heathen always makes me giggleEmbarrassed


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kfoxx1998 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kfoxx1998 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 07 2012 at 10:57am
Whew.  I can even respond to the second post right now.  It would take entirely too longCry
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bigheddz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bigheddz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2012 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by kfoxx1998 kfoxx1998 wrote:

Originally posted by bigheddz bigheddz wrote:


To reply to the topic directly when Atheists write books about not believing in a god, having rallies, advertising(literally spreading the word and dedicated web sites), creating Atheist groups/organizations and developing what seems to be a movement then at the point it has become conceptually the same as a religion. All of these things are happening, and they seem to have strong convictions. one of the signs of a religious atheist or a dedicated Atheist is when said person consistently participates in topics of religion.

 

In conclusion, I will say that many atheists can be considered religious, but not all.



I was completely with you until the bolded.   This statement could be applied to any group of like minded people who come together to share ideas and possibly bring about reforms, etc.  Are these religious organizations?:

- Civil Rights Movement
- Gary Rights Movement
- Mothers against Drunk Driving
- KKK
- Democrats
- Republicans
- National Teachers Association

Its not that I disagree with the idea of what you're saying I just find it to be an inaccurate way to move atheism into the category of religion.  TO ME, it makes more sense to move religion under the category of an organization with a purpose like all of the above.  

Or better still call religion what it is and I think you (bigheddz) described it perfectly.  Religion is about moving with a faith in higher beings.  There is no need to retrofit those who disagree or do not carry that faith in gods or spirits into the category of religion. 

I also think that being very interested in religion doesn't necessarily make one religious either.  Personally I find religion to be one of the most fascinating topics in the human experience.  My interest is in ALL religions going back to the original religion which is believed to be Zoroastrianism.  I am just as interested in history and social science but we don't have sections for thatConfused.

I think this is a great topic by the way OPThumbs Up

 

The bolded was to illustrate Atheism can be very organized, dogmatic and philosophical; therefore you have an equivalent to a religion(or as I said in my post “conceptually the same” as a religion) minus devotion to a god, Yet the gods are obviously the center of attention in most forms of Atheism albeit in a negative fashion. The issue is Atheists are reluctant to admit it.

 

Buddhism, Confucianism, Stoicism, Epicureanism, Cynicism and Platonism are all dogmatic and philosophical. All of these doctrines are meant to be followed in a way that is identical to a religion, yet are not generally consider religions at least not by popular opinion because they do not feature an explicitly mandated ritual to a god.  However, being a disciple of any of the above philosophies clearly ties them to the doctrine in a religious way, just as being an Atheist devoted to dismantling a religion, god or persuading others they should give up their faith, is a form of discipleship to the cause.

 

Perhaps it is all a matter of perspective, these days people say they are not religious but spiritual, yet exhibit all the ingredients of a religion.

 

I am not necessarily moving Atheism in the religion category but saying that Religions, forms of Atheism, schools of philosophy and certain traditions belong in the same category.

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bigheddz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigheddz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2012 at 6:55pm
Zoroastrianism the first religion? Egyptian and Mesopotamian religions probably predates it, i never found the religion the least bit interesting, nor its cousin Hinduism
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kfoxx1998 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 14 2012 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by bigheddz bigheddz wrote:

Zoroastrianism the first religion? Egyptian and Mesopotamian religions probably predates it, i never found the religion the least bit interesting, nor its cousin Hinduism


LOL I did say that.  I meant first monotheistic religion.   For that reason I have a hard time thinking of it as a cousin of Hinduism.  The origin or Zoroastrianism is Mesopotamian and it is believed to have a lot more to do with the monotheism of the Abrahamic religions than people realize.  The concept of good vs. evil is a major part of the doctrine (a Jesus and a Lucifer) of fighting over mankind).  The other theme is the Older Brother / Younger Brother rivalry that runs through the bible in so many stories.  Kind of fascinating but thats just my opinion.    I love compare and contrast. 

I actually got to interview someone who is part of the very very small number of people who practice Zoroastrianism  and it was really interesting to hear how much the caste system plays a role with believers.  She was married to an African American - for shame!

I hate that people really believe atheists are on a mission to get other people to abandon their gods.  Its not one of my personal goals.  I know several people who really need to start practicing the faith they proclaimAngry

It also scares me to think what  believers who fear a higher power and only refrain from mayhem because of that would do if the covers came off.  I fear that all "hell" would literally break loose.   Especially if there is nothing to replace the good parts that the world has embraced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigheddz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2012 at 3:35pm
I would say Zoroastrianism is more related to Hinduism than any of the Semitic religions that arose from the Mesopotamian. Zoroastrianism I believe came from Old Indo-Aryan polytheistic beliefs, with Zoroaster deciding to worship one of the gods and the other successors of the old beliefs became what is now Hinduism. Very similar to the Hebrew religion, descending from the old semitic religions of Mesopotamia which Hebrews eventually began to worship only one of the Semitic gods named Yahweh. I could be wrong, knowledge of Indo-Aryan religions are definitely a weak point of mine.
 
Cool that you got a chance to meet one, my college president was one, but I never spoke to him before. He was from India actually, but being in the Bible Belt I think he kept silent about his religion.
 
I would not say that all atheists are on a mission to dismantle one's faith in religion, however i've met quite a few, and told me it was their mission. Like some Christians, they felt compelled to spread the word and save us all. It depends on the person
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Doc Holiday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 11 2013 at 10:07am
No, it isn't. Calling Atheism a religion is just as ludicrous as calling Theism a religion. That said, this new Anti-Theistic wave gives me pause. Especially the veneration of the so-called Four Horsemen.


Originally posted by bigheddz bigheddz wrote:

I would say Zoroastrianism is more related to Hinduism than any of the Semitic religions that arose from the Mesopotamian. Zoroastrianism I believe came from Old Indo-Aryan polytheistic beliefs, with Zoroaster deciding to worship one of the gods and the other successors of the old beliefs became what is now Hinduism. Very similar to the Hebrew religion, descending from the old semitic religions of Mesopotamia which Hebrews eventually began to worship only one of the Semitic gods named Yahweh. I could be wrong, knowledge of Indo-Aryan religions are definitely a weak point of mine.
 

This may be true, but many scholars believe that the ancient Hebrews were influenced by Zoroastrianism when they were exiled in Babylon. There was a definite shift in their beliefs from merely venerating Yahweh and believing that the dead simply went to a nebulous afterlife known as Sheol to a struggle between good and evil forces and the dead either going to Gan-Eden (Proto-Heaven) or Gehennom (Proto-Hell).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote katakana89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 11 2013 at 4:20pm
For some reason reading this thread hurt my brain, and I like reading these kinds of things.

Atheism isn't a religion. I think non atheists label them that way to make them feel less intimidated by the fact that not everyone believes in deity or participates in religious activity.
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