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Does long term use of silicones cause balding?

 
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Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Originally posted by pinkecube pinkecube wrote:


I will always come back and point out whether you misquote me, and I will point out your conduct in your replies to me as long as you keep replying.

 



That is where we differ. I did not bother  to mention most of the incidents where you misquoted me or twisted what I was saying because I find it far too exhausting and would have distracted from the message I was trying to deliver.  
Anyways, best wishes and cheers. Enjoy your day and happy hair journey.


There were no misquotes. There isn't a place where I have twisted what you said. I know this because I read every last bit of what you said in every post. What I directly quoted from you, I pasted directly from your posts. Even another user who read through this debate pointed out there were no misquotes when you tried to accuse me of it. And when you did accuse me of misquoting, and giving half truths i I directly addressed the issue and took my time to prove what i was saying was not a misquote. I elaborated on what i said and posted even more sources that proved what I was saying was correct. You want to turn me into some kind of cult fanatic who didn't support what I was saying. But I have supported everything I have said, and several people can attest to that.

You too, have a great day and hair journey. I think it's time we end this back and forth, because I have nothing to say unless you try to accuse me of something I didn't do. Then in which case, I will always have something to say. We all know this by now.
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OK I will only share the first two incidents where you implied I said things that I did not.  I really do not feel like going through all these pages.


Pink cube: What you are doing is ignoring evidence that shows silicones do build up on the hair, viewing silicones as some kind of holy grail

1) I am not ignoring that they build up rather I stated I think I view it as a GOOD thing that they build up to offer weight for puffy hair
2) Your stating I view silicones as a holy grail was a ridiculous mockery. Just because I do not view them as necessarily bad does not imply I view them as a holy grail. That was a blatant exaggeration to the point of mockery.


Lady Aradia:"Hair dryness is more an issue of lack of lipids or natural fatty, moist substances in the strand.  This is addressed in one of the articles below. So water or hydration alone is not going to make your hair feel less dry. In fact as the hair dries from water alone, it will take with it a lot of natural oils also evaporating from the strand leaving the hair DRYER."

Pink cube:I never said anything to combat this. But sealing in with a silicone conditioner or oil alone wouldn't be enough to hold water on the hair. Water is what actually moisturizes the hair. If you only used oils either, your hair would not be moisturized. Oils are lubricants and sealants. They alone do not moisturize the hair, period.

I never said oil alone moisturized. What I said to be exact was 
" So in order to fix dryness, you need to add emulsions of water with oils to the strand that can replicate natural lipids...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gkDoMNz8RQ"
 So again you exaggerated what I said to seem as if oil alone was going to moisturize. This is making a mockery of my point by omission of part of the statement. 


I could go on and it gets much worse as I continue. But I will not because I have some things to do today. I am not implying that you do not. I am just explaining why I can not continue with this. Suffice it to say, I feel that you intentionally mangled my message by exaggeration to a point of mockery in those two small incidents (just to start). All these subtle attacks build up to try to pick away at someone's message and try to undermine it. 

Instead of going on to show you the rest of them, I will just say I forgive you and again apologize for my part in the matter. 
Happy Hair Journey and best wishes.


Edited by LadyAradia - Mar 29 2014 at 9:45am
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Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Pink cube: What you are doing is ignoring evidence that shows silicones do build up on the hair, viewing silicones as some kind of holy grail

1) I am not ignoring that they build up rather I stated I think I view it as a GOOD thing that they build up to offer weight for puffy hair


That is your view/ opinion and you are presenting it as a fact, when it is not. When I presented my (scientifically supported) advice to the OP, you said I was spreading "bullcrap" and called me a "cult fanatic". No scientists, even the ones you sourced said anything that proved my advice was as unreasonable as you exaggeratedly claimed. No scientists, are specifically saying weighed down hair is a good thing for "puffy" hair, or any hair. You are saying it. What do you mean by puffy hair anyway. Frizzy hair? What african american hair types? All of them? You never proved silicones were good for all african american hair types, or were being specific about hair types at all.  I have shown evidence that certain hair types would not respond well to the way silicones behave on the hair. You even acknowleged I was correct. There are many testimonies you can look up that support this, and they aren't tales or "fables" or "balogna".

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

No that is all balogna & cowashing only is fine. I see no point in ever stripping the treatment off of the strands since I will only put some more right back on the hair the instant I finish rinsing out the cleanser.


Someone's personal experience with their hair isn't something you can just offhandely call bologna, just because it doesn't fall in line with your opinions.


In the video, this youtuber with low porosity type 4 hair states that if she doesn't shampoo her hair at least once every 2 weeks with a sulfate shampoo, she gets scabs on her scalp. She also uses any old drugstore conditioner she feels like, and that she "doesn't mind" using silicones.  Cowashing isn't enough for her, or she gets scabs and excessive build up. The why is still a mystery to her, because she actively uses drugstore conditioners without taking care to research the ingredients. But to you, that is "all balogna" and a "false tale".

And I have also proven that cowashing only is not always fine for certain hair types, that do not benefit from that cast being left on, especially if you are using silicones. You have already acknowledged your agreement to this in your most recent posts:



Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

PS I very much agree with the last source you posted stating that silicones  can be very beneficial to certain hairs.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

2) Your stating I view silicones as a holy grail was a ridiculous mockery. Just because I do not view them as necessarily bad does not imply I view them as a holy grail. That was a blatant exaggeration to the point of mockery.


You have previously indicated that you view silicones as a holy grail. A metaphor that was in no way an exaggeration in the context, since you kept implying silicones were good for all african american hair, unequivocally.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

African Americans can benefit from silicones just as we benefit from oils. ignore the cult fanatics who spread this bull crap.



btw, falsely accusing me of being a cult fanatic who spreads around bull crap is much more insulting than what I said. also, you didn't acknowledge the rest of what I said, being another sign of your hypocritical attempts to grasp at straws. You are once again falsely accusing me of doing something I did not do, only for me to reveal that is exactly what you are attempting to do to me, which is hypocritical conduct.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

you can not reason with fearmongerers. They fabricate tales of doom and gloom based on non proven hypothesis


calling me a "fearmongerer" saying I was "fabricating tales of doom and gloom"
Another example of your straw grasps and hypocrisy in this post, as none of the evidence you showed directly conflicted w/ what I was saying. You then proceeded to spread misinformation based on your own fear mongering, self fabricated tales of gloom and doom in regards to bakingsoda and acv rinse mixture that I suggested-- telling people to be afraid of bakingsoda and apple cider vinegar based on completely fabricated and confabulated "facts" and baseless assumptions, that directly conflict with many scientific evidences. All while trying to represent yourself as a curly hair expert. See quote below:

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Furthermore, adding drying agents like vinegar and baking soda will eat out even more of the few lipids (fats) the strands have and leave the hair dryer. It may feel softer when it is wet because you have dissolved some of the keratin similar to the way a relaxer dissolves some of the keratin and cuticle. This is why some naturals notice a smoother curl pattern after baking soda.They've swollen the strands as much as a relaxer with the baking soda which causes destruction of some of the disulfide bonds that form kinks and curl patterns. This is the same thing that relaxers do to the hair, swell the strand and cause the disulfide curl bonds to break.. (You've essentially eroded  some of the strand off and zapped out its natural oils. That is why it will feel dryer when it dries after zapping the hair with corrosive vinegar and baking soda.


Bakingsoda and apple cider vinegar, not white vinegar. They are not corrosive, as scientist have already said, phs of 4-9 do not significantly effect the hair shaft. Hair protein has a natural resistance to ph changes. The only thing that range of ph's can do is lift the hair cuticle, and gently cleanse build up off the hair. Did you know bentonite clay has a ph of 9? Are you now going to proceed to argue bentonite clay dissolves the hair like a relaxer?

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/investigation-does-ph-affect-your-hair.html

"There are two authoritative studies on this with pretty similar results. There is very little change to hair structure between the pH ranges of 4 to 9. Hair protein resists changes due to acid or base. Tests were performed using hydrochloric acid (powerful acid) and sodium hydroxide (a strong base)."

" Hair does not absorb noticeable amounts of acid or base between pH 4-10" ( J Soc Cosmet Chem, pp 393-405, 1981)
"The cuticle separation distance is within the same range between pH 4 -9" (J Invest Dermatol 105: pp96-99, 1995)


Oh, and just in case you try fault me that accusing you of being a hypocrite and grasping at straws is another "baseless" and "personal" or "exaggerated" insult:

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasp+at+straws
clutch/grasp at straws
 
1. to try any method, even those that are not likely to succeed, because you are in such a bad situation (usually in continuous tenses)

Originally posted by Pinkecube Pinkecube wrote:

what you are doing is ignoring evidence that shows silicones do build up on the hair, viewing silicones as some kind of holy grail, and if someone has a problem with silicones it's all boloney.


I saw that and pointed it out. You have repeatedly implied throughout your past posts silicones are good for all african american hair. when i continued to say silicones were not good for everyone's hair, you continued to try and refute what i was saying, claiming I was using psuedo science and lies, drawing false hypothesis. But I wasn't and you have only recently in your post corrected yourself, showing you didn't actually want to admit what I was saying was correct until it became painfully obvious. here are some quotes of that below:



Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Silicone is one the BEST emollients for hair and skin known to man. Silicones are oily, emollient substances.


By the way silicones are not oils. Silicones are polymers that include silicon together with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and sometimes other elements. They plasticize the hair. The is a difference between silicone oil and plain silicones.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I see this same bull crap with vegans and vegetarians. They spread fear telling people they will drop dead on the spot if they eat a drop of meat.


you are creating an analogy that in no way applied to what i was saying, grossly exaggerating the points I was trying to make as if they were on this level of extremity. That is a real example of mockery. And there are more below.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

They are actually scientists with degrees.  You are a spreading pseudo "science" based on nothing except your own inflated ego.


that is a personal insult, and a false accusation that it isn't based on science, already proven to we incorrect, and you have proceeded to admit you were incorrect in you recent post.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

PS: Get over yourself and stop trying to make this all about you.  HA who are you?. This is not about you pink and you are nothing to me to discredit or otherwise.  This is about the OP wanting opinions on a product. 

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Let them pay outrageous prices. They are sheep and they are falling right in line  with the campaigns being waged against their wallet. Let them. It's their own fault if they fall for it when we are telling them what is going on.


I guess $4, $5, and $3 is an outrageous price in your book. Enough to call us "sheep", since we don't agree with you opinion. When I proceeded to point that out, when you purposely twisted information, I was told to "get over" myself.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:


Lady Aradia:"Hair dryness is more an issue of lack of lipids or natural fatty, moist substances in the strand.  This is addressed in one of the articles below. So water or hydration alone is not going to make your hair feel less dry. In fact as the hair dries from water alone, it will take with it a lot of natural oils also evaporating from the strand leaving the hair DRYER."

Pink cube:I never said anything to combat this. But sealing in with a silicone conditioner or oil alone wouldn't be enough to hold water on the hair. Water is what actually moisturizes the hair. If you only used oils either, your hair would not be moisturized. Oils are lubricants and sealants. They alone do not moisturize the hair, period.

Lady Aradia: I never said oil alone moisturized. What I said to be exact was 
" So in order to fix dryness, you need to add emulsions of water with oils to the strand that can replicate natural lipids...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gkDoMNz8RQ"
 So again you exaggerated what I said to seem as if oil alone was going to moisturize. This is making a mockery of my point by omission of part of the statement.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

Hair dryness is more an issue of lack of lipids or natural fatty, moist substances in the strand.


 
That above is the quote that was also addressed in my statement, so there is Not an exaggeration or misquote or relevant omission in any way.  i then proceeded to say that on this level we are saying the same thing. Your wording was intentionally meant to deceive people that emollients are moisturizing, aka "moist substances". That is what you said to be exact. We were saying the same thing about the function of emollients, but you still proceeded to add that. I corrected you that emollients are only moisturizing agents. The only moisturizer, or moist substances, are water, and water based substances. Lipids and fatty acids are oils. Even hair sebum is an oil, and fatty acid, and emollient. You are just rearranging your wording, but in the end it means the same thing, and I was not out of context to correct that statement. I corrected you and said they were moisturizing agents. directly
quoting it from you, and addressing that part of the quote. I also didn't omit the other quote.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

"So water or hydration alone is not going to make your hair feel less dry."


That is the quote I used, and it is delivering the same exact message as this quote below you are saying i omitted.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

So in order to fix dryness, you need to add emulsions of water with oils to the strand that can replicate natural lipids


You continued to act like i said anywhere at all that sealing in moisture wasn't an important part of keeping hair hydrated. You now recently admit that we were saying the same thing on that level, but in that previous post you still felt the need to point it out, and even imply that emollients are moist substances in the hair strand. That was the only conflict i saw in the statement, so i corrected it. It wasn't mockery at all, and your wording is deceitful and completely diverting away from what i said.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I could go on and it gets much worse as I continue. But I will not because I have some things to do today. I am not implying that you do not. I am just explaining why I can not continue with this. Suffice it to say, I feel that you intentionally mangled my message by exaggeration to a point of mockery in those two small incidents (just to start). All these subtle attacks build up to try to pick away at someone's message and try to undermine it.


Please do go on and on when you find the time. You simply can't find anywhere where I get worse and worse. And people who read this are supposed to just take your word for it? What you need to do is either find more of these direct quotes or let them read this post themselves. Since you directly quoted me, I have directly quoted some of your statements, which had gotten increasingly rude throughout the post and actually included them here.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

But I will not because I have some things to do today. I am not implying that you do not.


V.S.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

LOL Please address the OP from here on. I have a life so I can not be sucked into this insignificant, never ending drama anymore


You have previously implied it though. It isn't unreasonable, when you word it the way you previously worded it, to take some offense, but I'll just take your word for that, that it wasn't intentional, back handed insult.

Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I  am finished with this.  I have posted the scientific sources and information I wished to share. I am sure you will continue to criticize them for several more pages  of rants.

"rant

verb \ˈrant\

: to talk loudly and in a way that shows anger : to complain in a way that is unreasonable"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rant

All the scientific sources you posted were directly addressed in my "rants". None of them were in direct confliction to what I was saying, and i used many of them to directly prove the point i was trying to make. The unnecessary longwinded explantations in this post are a direct result of you repeatedly ignoring those facts, not reading my arguments, and then purposely misconstruing all the points I made. If you had simply admitted from the beginning that your disagreements with what i was saying were baseless, there would be no reason for me to repeatedly post this much evidence in my favor.


Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:

I am not using any of the products in question currently I realized this is meaningless to me. I don't use conditioners with my hair in braids unfortunately and I have never used baking soda or vinegar.


You, basically admitting you are not qualified to argue the particular topics I proved during this discussion.

 Have a good day, and nothing I posted here is personal. I just am very strict and can't allow my factual messages to be twisted around and misconstrued by straw grasping rebuttals and half truths. You may continue your baseless arguments if you may, and I will address them once again if I have to. But for now, I am done. Thank you and have a good day.



Edited by pinkecube - Mar 29 2014 at 6:08pm
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By the way, if any of you notice dryness from using coconut oil, which many people claim their hair doesn't like because it, "acts like a protein in their hair", this may be relevant information for you.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/29/are-silicones-bad-for-your-hair/
coconut oil: "What about carrier oils, as you describe them? Some oils are effective conditioners. Take coconut oil, for example. While it doesn`t provide the same surface smoothing as silicones, it has been shown to penetrate hair and plasticize the cortex, making hair stronger. (This isn’t true of all natural oils however.)"

silicones: "Even if you did block your hair from absorbing moisture, the silicone would act like a moisturizing agent because it would plasticize and lubricate your hair. " (note moisturizing agents need to work in conjunction with water, the only true moisturizing substance or hydrator, and if allowed to build up on hair they can work against ideal moisture absorption.)

Coconut oil penetrates hair and plasticizes the cortex. this is the main difference between coconut oil and other oils, so if you find your individual hair isn't compatible with this oil, this is the reason, it is not random.



Edited by pinkecube - Mar 29 2014 at 4:30pm
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Originally posted by pinkecube pinkecube wrote:

By the way, if any of you notice dryness from using coconut oil, which many people claim their hair doesn't like because it, "acts like a protein in their hair", this may be relevant information for you.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/29/are-silicones-bad-for-your-hair/
coconut oil: "What about carrier oils, as you describe them? Some oils are effective conditioners. Take coconut oil, for example. While it doesn`t provide the same surface smoothing as silicones, it has been shown to penetrate hair and plasticize the cortex, making hair stronger. (This isn’t true of all natural oils however.)"

silicones: "Even if you did block your hair from absorbing moisture, the silicone would act like a moisturizing agent because it would plasticize and lubricate your hair. " (note moisturizing agents need to work in conjunction with water, the only true moisturizing substance or hydrator, and if allowed to build up on hair they can work against ideal moisture absorption.)

Coconut oil penetrates hair and plasticizes the cortex. this is the main difference between coconut oil and other oils, so if you find your individual hair isn't compatible with this oil, this is the reason, it is not random.


 Coconut oil not only plasticizes the cortex, but is an amino alcohol. It is not a fatty alcohol.

"Ethanolamine is an organic compound that is naturally found in coconut oil and is a primary amine and primary alcohol"
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/6884068


http://www.futurederm.com/2012/04/19/is-ethanol-in-skin-care-products-safe/

"As I explained last week in The 5 Most Common Mistakes Even Skin Experts Make, it is well-established that ethanol can reduce water content via a form of water loss known as transepidermal water loss (TEWL) (1), lipid content via extraction and dissolution (2), and protein content via denaturation (3). These properties allow for ethanol to be an effective (and drying) penetration enhancer."

"Ethanol in itself isn’t harmful. It’s the drying effect that can lead to other problems."






Edited by pinkecube - Mar 30 2014 at 6:19pm
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http://www.terressentials.com/hairhelp.html#chemhair

“Chemical hair treatments permanently alter the outer layer of the hair shaft creating a porous cuticle – under a microscope chemically treated hair looks like Swiss cheese. Once hair is damaged by chemical colorings, perms or straightening chemicals, people are sold a myriad of synthetic products that artificially coat the hair with plastic or protein polymers to make it look and feel undamaged. The more damaged the hair, the more porous it becomes; the more porous the hair, the more it absorbs these synthetic “protein” polymers (e.g. soy, wheat or oat proteins – that are NOT edible foods), plastic polymers such as PVP (petrochemical polyvinyl pyrrolidone) and gum coating agents. These are the substances the “mud” removes in the detox protocol, but the detox process takes time."

thought i'd add that to additionally hit on some perspective on silicones, not that it should even be needed at this point, but I am doing it anyway.


Edited by pinkecube - Mar 30 2014 at 7:41pm
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would you ladies please pm your bickering..

this "debating" is  convoluting very basic information.

From an outsider's perspective, it's almost like watching two guys showing "Who has the bigger d**ck"..

i'm not a debater, and to be honest i think debating is a waste of time.

If someone starts a  thread, and you disagree, just state your opinion and keep it moving.

If you still feel you have a burning desire to prove your point, then make your own gawd damn thread.

What we are witnessing is good intel turned into Bad Shakespeare..

just stop it already.. it's not a good look for either of you.






Edited by femmemuscleisback - Mar 30 2014 at 9:25pm
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Originally posted by femmemuscleisback femmemuscleisback wrote:

would you ladies please pm your bickering..

this "debating" is  convoluting very basic information.

From an outsider's perspective, it's almost like watching two guys showing "Who has the bigger d**ck"..

i'm not a debater, and to be honest i think debating is a waste of time.

If someone starts a  thread, and you disagree, just state your opinion and keep it moving.

If you still feel you have a burning desire to prove your point, then make your own gawd damn thread.

What we are witnessing is good intel turned into Bad Shakespeare..

just stop it already.. it's not a good look for either of you.



You are right. I will put it in my thread, then. I have almost finished a more organized faq that gets straight to the point of why silicones are incompatible for some hair types, with several objective scientific sources that support the information. Nothing i said was convoluted. There are several people including another cosmetologies(besides Lady aradia) that attested what i was sayinb was true. It will be posted on it's own blog webpage, along with information about other ingredients, and soon on its very own website, and I will make a link to it in my own thread, "the max hydration method". 

I really think it was important to directly quote her and address each issue as it was a huge part in developing many of the points made at the time. The discussion is over however. I will no longer be replying to this thread, as i have thoroughly proved my point, and the Op has shown to have appreciated what i said, along with many others. I knew that many people in the future are very likely to see this thread, and so I wanted to properly address each point so they wouldn't be left hanging with misconstrued, convoluted information.


Edited by pinkecube - Mar 30 2014 at 10:59pm
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Originally posted by LadyAradia LadyAradia wrote:


Prettywitty77 sprays silicone conditioner and water on her afro hair several times per week as her leave in moisturizer. As a matter of fact she uses Hello Hydration which pinkcube said contains many harmful silicones. Here are visual facts of how the silicones have " harmed " her hair.






pretty hair... do you know what she did to grow her hair?

eta: found her instagram and youtube.. will check it out


Edited by sexyandfamous - Mar 31 2014 at 10:11pm
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@sexyandfamous

SHE IS NOT CO-WASHING. Are silicones appropriate for CO-WASHING, not for regular usage -- not for regular usage as suggested ON THE BOTTLE. For COWASHING. It is not. I'm not even going to talk about her hair type (given that it can withstand relaxers. Can YOUR hair withstand relaxers?)... not even going to touch on that. That's how simple and clear cut this is. 

Why is this so confusing? 


Edited by kwicherbichen - Apr 02 2014 at 11:34am
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